[rpd] [Community-Discuss] Cloud Innovation Displays Very Poor, If Not Criminal, Netizenship

[Owen DeLong]

> On May 31, 2020, at 11:40 , Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> wrote:

> 

> 

> 

> On Sun, 31 May 2020, 20:11 Owen DeLong, <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:

> 

> 

>> On May 31, 2020, at 00:27 , Noah <noah at neo.co.tz <mailto:noah at neo.co.tz>> wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> On Sun, 31 May 2020, 05:16 Owen DeLong, <owen at delong.com <mailto:owen at delong.com>> wrote:

>> IPv4 only continues to have value as long as eyeballs and content are not available on IPv6.

>> 

>> And the process to make both eyeballs and content available on IPv6 is a spontaneous one. We ought to consciously acknowledge this fact.

>> 

> 

> Not sure what you mean by your use of the word “spontaneous” here. In the words of Enigo Montoya… “I do not think it means what you think it means.”

> 

> Trees/plants/humans dont grow up in one day. The process itself is unnoticeable depending on the prevailing conditions and Time (could be months or years).  Growth is a spontaneous [1] process.

> 

> We tried to encourage customers to deploy IPv6 and those who attempted to do it, did so at their own pace.


I guess you missed the key word “sudden” in that definition you cited…

I believe the word you were looking for would be more appropriately “organic”…

(From that same dictionary site)
organic adjective (OF FOOD PRODUCTION)

  <>
B2
not using artificial <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/artificial> chemicals <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/chemical> in the growing <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/growing> of plants <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/plant> and animals <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/animal> for food <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/food> and other products <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/product>: 
organic food <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/food>/fruit <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/fruit>/farms <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/farm>/farmers <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/farmer>
 More examples
Cheap organic food <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/food> is still difficult <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/difficult> to come by.
These organic olives <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/olive> are packaged <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/packaged> in recycled <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/recycled> glass <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/glass> containers <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/container>.
Supermarkets have recognized <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/recognized> the increasing <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/increase> popularity <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/popularity> of organic food <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/food>.
The restaurant <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/restaurant> only uses organic ingredients <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/ingredient>.
Sales of organic food <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/food> have increased <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/increase> dramatically <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/dramatically> in recent <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/recent> years <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/year>.

organic adjective (OF CHANGES)

  <>
happening <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/happening> or developing <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/developing> naturally <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/naturally> over time <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/time>, without being forced <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/forced> or planned <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/planned> by anyone: 
Our policies <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/policy> are organic. They change <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/change> as situations <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/situation> change <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/change>.
His television <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/television> career <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/career> was an organic development <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/development> from the endless <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/endless> sketches <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/sketch> he used to enact <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/enact> with his best <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/best> friend <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/friend> from school <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/school>.

> 

>  

>> So… The statement that spending our energy migrating to IPv6 will devalue IPv4 is 100% accurate.

>> 

>> I never disagreed with that statement. 

>> 

>> One can argue that the introduction of IPv4 transfer markets just ensured the process to migrate to IPv6 become a joke.

> 

> One can argue just about anything. However, in reality, like it or not (and I don’t, I think my record on that is pretty clear), transfer markets were a reality

> we were faced with regardless of whether RIR policy chose to recognize them or not.

> 

> 1.	Nothing in existing RIR policy precluded derivatives (options), leasing, etc.

> 2.	Nothing in existing RIR policy was going to prevent off-books transfers where sufficient monetary incentive existed.

> 

> We were not faced with a choice between “Implement transfer markets or not.” We were faced with a choice of “Recognize transfer markets and

> regulate them or ensure that they are black markets and that the RIR system and its IPv4 policies become irrelevant to the actual operation of

> the internet.”

> 

> And black markets still exist nonetheless (a failure of responsible audits and accountability) irrespective of existing transfer markets imho.


Most of the places where black markets exist with any significance are places with unreasonably restrictive transfer policies. It’s not so much a failure of responsible audits and
accountability as a failure of policy to adapt to reality. People are seeing the current overly restrictive transfer policy in the AfriNIC region as damage and routing around it.


>> So now we have folks with capital spending most of their energy moving IPv4 address space all over the place since its a currency that ensures serious economic benefits. 

> 

> If you know of a way to stop this, I’m all ears.

> 

> Impossible to stop economic activities. 


Thus, we felt it was better in the ARIN region to provide reasonable accommodation while still preserving useful aspects of regulation. I think we have achieved
a good balance there and that there’s relatively little black market movement of IPv4 resources in the ARIN region which has also made it possible to have
better accountability (for example the recent reclamation of a large quantity of improperly transferred address space).


>> Amazon (AWS) and Microsoft (Azure) and others alike for instance have been buying so much IPv4 space in recent years from this transfer markets.

> 

> I’ll point out that each of the groups you mention have also been deploying IPv6. 

> 

> Ack

> 

> Faced with the business externalities that they are, they really have no choice but to try

> and acquire enough IPv4 to support customer demand for as long as possible. I can assure you that each of them would love to see customer demand for IPv4 go away.

> 

> Hence my point that both shall co-exist for years. So we cant devalue IPv4 in an attempt to promote IPv6 and this is why responsible management of IPv4 space must be ensured.


You are misconstruing what was said.

What was said was that deployment of IPv6 will devalue IPv4. The wider IPv6 is deployed, the less need there is for people to accumulate additional IPv4 resources. Reducing
market demand for IPv4 resources will inherently reduce the value of those resources. Thus, as was stated, wider deployment of IPv6 will devalue IPv4.

Nobody said that devaluing IPv4 was a way to promote IPv6… We said that deploying IPv6 would devalue IPv4.


>> One also just cant force eyeballs all over the place to deploy IPv6 unless content folks went full regalia and made content only available on IPv6 while risking IPv4 revenue.

> 

> That day is coming one way or another… Eventually, we will see a point where there simply aren’t any more IPv4 addresses available for new content providers, or, we

> will have depleted the available IPv4 addresses for eyeballs.

> 

> No doubt. 

> 

> 

> OTOH, IPv6 is available to the vast majority of eyeballs in the US. Comcast has 100% IPv6 coverage, as do most of the major cellular carriers. AIUI, the other major

> eyeball ISPs in the US are fast approaching that.

> 

> One can attribute different factors to such outcomes beyond just the US.


I cited the US as an example because it is the market with which I have the greatest familiarity. If you want another good example outside of the US, look at the current rate of IPv6 adoption around India.

Globally, Google is seeing more than 30% of their traffic via IPv6. The prime laggards according to their map are northern Asia, Russia, Greenland, the Middle East, and the vast majority of Africa.

In fact, Africa is by far, the least deployed continent for IPv6, with notable exceptions in Togo and Gabon and problematic deployments in Kenya and Burundi.

I think you will see spontaneous deployment of IPv6 across China in the near future. Being as all the major ISPs in China are essentially one organization owned by the government, when the mandate finally comes, implementation and deployment will be quite rapid.



> (In the case of fixed wired ISPs, that is IPv6 is available to any subscriber whose CPE supports it and who hasn’t deliberately turned it off).

> 

> There is that too.

> 

> 

>> Atleast this is how I see it. Capitalism at its best.

> 

> Or one of the finest examples of how capitalism is nearly as flawed as the alternatives.

> 

> No system is perfect after all.


Agreed… But people love to tout th failures of socialism while often ignoring those same failures in a different form in capitalism.

In socialism, the lack of reward for effort and the lack of incentive to rise above is cited quite often.
In capitalism, the failure to tie reward and/or incentive to a greater good is mostly overlooked. The concept of perverse incentives occasionally gets mentioned, but usually in arguing for deregulation which often exacerbates the most harmful perverse incentives.


Owen


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