[Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
GH.-GNONKOTO Serges PATRICK
gnonkoto.patrick at artci.ci
Mon Oct 3 14:30:44 UTC 2016
Salut,
Je crois qu'il faut se garder de tenir de propos désobligeants car ce n'est ni le lieu et le moment. Car qui peut avoir cette outrecuidance de lancer une invective sur son collègue ?
Andrew, il y a eu de revenir sur tes propos et considérer que quelqu'un d'autre puisse avoir une idée divergente de la tienne sans pourtant être ''irresponsable'' (entre griffes, pour éviter d'employer tes mots) !
La question ici est relative au quorum et au nombre de représentativité. Nous attelons-nous à ça et recentrons le débat.
Patrick.
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Serges Patrick GHANSAH-GNONKOTO
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Envoyé : lundi 3 octobre 2016 12:00
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Frank Habicht)
2. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (ALAIN AINA)
3. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Andrew Alston)
4. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Jackson Muthili)
5. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Andrew Alston)
6. Re: [members-discuss] Accountability assessment- bylaws
changes (L.A. Ym)
7. Re: [members-discuss] Accountability assessment - bylaws
changes (Ben Roberts)
8. Re: [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe (Barrack Otieno)
9. Re: [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe (ARTHUR CARINDAL)
10. Re: [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe (Musa Stephen Honlue)
11. Re: [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe (Miku, E. Cornelius)
12. Re: [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe (Loganaden Velvindron)
13. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Jackson Muthili)
14. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Alan Barrett)
15. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Andrew Alston)
16. Re: Accountability assessment - quorum (Boubakar Barry)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 08:58:48 +0300
From: Frank Habicht <geier at geier.ne.tz>
To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID: <98879168-84f0-6339-dcbd-24713e494d68 at geier.ne.tz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Alain,
On 10/1/2016 4:54 PM, ALAIN AINA wrote:
...
> Referring to the Act beyond what its applied to "Registered members"
> seems inappropriate and can lead to questioning may other things?
...
I want to ask and not assume.
Do you mean that "questioning other things" is a bad thing?
Or was this an invitation to "question other things", like the ones you
listed?
That's because I was understanding the first, and someone else
understood the latter.
Thanks,
Frank
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 12:35:20 +0400
From: ALAIN AINA <aalain at trstech.net>
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID: <7ECBCC26-69EF-4928-9DA2-3AA34DA50CB1 at trstech.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Hello Andrew,
I respect Afrinic Directors and follow good rules of conduct. So I will not return to the disparaging words used in your response to me.
Let me put this in a few points here again:
1- I never said to not follow or comply with Law
2- I called for clear understanding between an Act provision applying to ?registered members? and not to ?resources members?.
2- AFRINIC has always followed the Act, laws, but also accommodates its community oversight.
The limit at ?5? of the number of proxy is lawful when applied to ?registered members?. How ?
Quorum at Members general meeting is set as follow:
======
ii) The quorum for an Annual General Member meeting shall be composed of minimum of ten (10) members in person comprising:
a) Four (4) Directors elected to represent a region;
b) One (1) Director elected on a non-regional criterion; and
c) Five (5) Resource Members.
==========
So five (5) registered members in person are required.
With nine (9) registered members in total and a quorum requirement of five (5) members in person how many proxies can a registered member carry to a valid AGMM ?
The limit to ?5? means ?no limit for the registered members? and that complies to the act.
Hope this helps
?Alain
> On Oct 2, 2016, at 12:26 PM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>
> Mirriam,
>
> I was speaking in my personal capacity ? firstly - and I stand by my right to do that.
>
> Secondly ? What was the point? Let me tell you a story ? In Djibouti there was an attempt to block several proxies using an argument of company stamps. That argument went on for many days ? it was eventually invalidated ? because it was determined that it would disenfranchise the members who had no company stamps and was invalid. However, it was a direct attempt to stop certain things through the change of the rules (well, that is my impression).
>
> I take serious issue with this statement specifically:
>
> One would expect the debate to stay at the community level and not involve the Act. The community to discuss and agree on how to manage this issue.
>
> You cannot ignore the act ? I am not a lawyer ? my reading of the act is in laymans terms ? and there are many lawyers that can contradict what I?m saying and I?m ok with that. I was NOT arguing from the perspective of proxies here ? look at the holistic essence of my email ? the only place I referenced proxies was as a specific example of how the companies act can restrict the bylaws from overriding it.
>
> What I was saying is that leaving the act out of an argument about the bylaws doesn?t make sense and is ? in my view ? irresponsible. The act is supreme and overriding, and ignoring it can have serious consequences.
>
> I stand by the position that ignoring the law is dangerous.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> From: Mirriam <mirriamlauren at yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: Mirriam <mirriamlauren at yahoo.com>
> Date: Sunday, 2 October 2016 at 10:36
> To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
>
> On 1 Oct 2016 19:07, "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> >
> > Alain,
> >
> > Quite frankly ? I think what you have said here is, at best, extremely naive and at worst incredibly irresponsible.
> >
> >
> Hi Andrew,
> You need to calm down. No one here is naive or irresponsible so mind how you respond to others and have some respect else Afrinic code of conduct comes into play and i hope the CEO and Chair will caution you.
> In fact your message is full of exaggeration. What exactly is your point considering following this discussion you seem to have jumped arguments from company bylaws to company act?
> Everyone herein is well aware that our " Afrinic is a private company registered in Mauritius with a Community Oversight through its Bylaws and remains a community/resource members driven organisation" otherwise we would not all be here deliberating on how to improve the organisation.
> You are one of the directors elected to the board to respresent the very resource members who elected you and as such you are answerable to us just as all the other directors who the membership sends to the board.
> So what exactly is your point with that long email as what was being discussed was plain simple proxy limits?
>
> Mirriam
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 08:49:21 +0000
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
To: ALAIN AINA <aalain at trstech.net>, General Discussions of AFRINIC
<community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID:
<AMSPR03MB5349799D3F002C5E4F52911EEC20 at AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Writing in my personal capacity.
Firstly, let me point out that anything I write on this list ? unless explicitly stated ? is written in my personal capacity and not as a director. What I write here is not necessarily representative of the wider board views and should the board be taking a position on something it will be communicated as such via the chairperson or someone delegated that responsibility by the board. So please, let us not mis-interpret my words as the words of the board.
Secondly ? my understanding of this situation is actually more complex than what is being stated on these lists.
Let us examine the clause in question:
(viii) No member entitled to vote during an election held by the Company shall carry more than five (5) proxies during the said election; and
There is no limitation anywhere ? and I would argue that you cannot limit this either ? that states that proxies must be given to members. In fact in no proxy that I have seen used at AFRINIC is a proxy issued to a member, it is issued to an individual who then represents the entity that granted the proxy.
As such, the above clause is null and void.
As an example:
If entity X issued a proxy to a specific COMPANY (or Member) ? then the limit would apply.
If entity X issued a proxy to a person who was a member in their own right (which ONLY applies to my knowledge in the case of an extremely limited number of associate members) ? the limit would apply.
If entity X issued a proxy to a person who was NOT a member in their own right, but merely WORKED for a member, then the proxy has been issued to a non-member, and the above clause is null and void and has no application.
Under your argument ? if the proxy is issued to a registered member ? by the act the rule would not apply. This also deals with the fact that registered members are members in their own right (as with the associate members referred to above) ? so again ? the limitation does not apply.
Effectively, my reading of the above clause in the bylaws is that it is a mute point and the text in the bylaws is extraneous since it is not in any way enforceable.
Again ? open to hearing legal opinion on this.
Thanks
Andrew
From: ALAIN AINA [mailto:aalain at trstech.net]
Sent: 03 October 2016 11:35
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Hello Andrew,
I respect Afrinic Directors and follow good rules of conduct. So I will not return to the disparaging words used in your response to me.
Let me put this in a few points here again:
1- I never said to not follow or comply with Law
2- I called for clear understanding between an Act provision applying to ?registered members? and not to ?resources members?.
2- AFRINIC has always followed the Act, laws, but also accommodates its community oversight.
The limit at ?5? of the number of proxy is lawful when applied to ?registered members?. How ?
Quorum at Members general meeting is set as follow:
======
ii) The quorum for an Annual General Member meeting shall be composed of minimum of ten (10) members in person comprising:
a) Four (4) Directors elected to represent a region;
b) One (1) Director elected on a non-regional criterion; and
c) Five (5) Resource Members.
==========
So five (5) registered members in person are required.
With nine (9) registered members in total and a quorum requirement of five (5) members in person how many proxies can a registered member carry to a valid AGMM ?
The limit to ?5? means ?no limit for the registered members? and that complies to the act.
Hope this helps
?Alain
On Oct 2, 2016, at 12:26 PM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Mirriam,
I was speaking in my personal capacity ? firstly - and I stand by my right to do that.
Secondly ? What was the point? Let me tell you a story ? In Djibouti there was an attempt to block several proxies using an argument of company stamps. That argument went on for many days ? it was eventually invalidated ? because it was determined that it would disenfranchise the members who had no company stamps and was invalid. However, it was a direct attempt to stop certain things through the change of the rules (well, that is my impression).
I take serious issue with this statement specifically:
One would expect the debate to stay at the community level and not involve the Act. The community to discuss and agree on how to manage this issue.
You cannot ignore the act ? I am not a lawyer ? my reading of the act is in laymans terms ? and there are many lawyers that can contradict what I?m saying and I?m ok with that. I was NOT arguing from the perspective of proxies here ? look at the holistic essence of my email ? the only place I referenced proxies was as a specific example of how the companies act can restrict the bylaws from overriding it.
What I was saying is that leaving the act out of an argument about the bylaws doesn?t make sense and is ? in my view ? irresponsible. The act is supreme and overriding, and ignoring it can have serious consequences.
I stand by the position that ignoring the law is dangerous.
Andrew
From: Mirriam <mirriamlauren at yahoo.com<mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com>>
Reply-To: Mirriam <mirriamlauren at yahoo.com<mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com>>
Date: Sunday, 2 October 2016 at 10:36
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
On 1 Oct 2016 19:07, "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>
> Alain,
>
> Quite frankly ? I think what you have said here is, at best, extremely naive and at worst incredibly irresponsible.
>
>
Hi Andrew,
You need to calm down. No one here is naive or irresponsible so mind how you respond to others and have some respect else Afrinic code of conduct comes into play and i hope the CEO and Chair will caution you.
In fact your message is full of exaggeration. What exactly is your point considering following this discussion you seem to have jumped arguments from company bylaws to company act?
Everyone herein is well aware that our " Afrinic is a private company registered in Mauritius with a Community Oversight through its Bylaws and remains a community/resource members driven organisation" otherwise we would not all be here deliberating on how to improve the organisation.
You are one of the directors elected to the board to respresent the very resource members who elected you and as such you are answerable to us just as all the other directors who the membership sends to the board.
So what exactly is your point with that long email as what was being discussed was plain simple proxy limits?
Mirriam
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 04:10:26 -0600
From: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID:
<CA+DdLrTAA2ofk1e3sBvQs8CBZwjJqRYZ-1nKdh_LxS4MgGw0rg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 2:49 AM, Andrew Alston
<Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Writing in my personal capacity.
>
> Firstly, let me point out that anything I write on this list ? unless
> explicitly stated ? is written in my personal capacity and not as a
> director.
Why are you disrespectful of others in your personal capacity?
> What I write here is not necessarily representative of the wider
> board views and should the board be taking a position on something it will
> be communicated as such via the chairperson or someone delegated that
> responsibility by the board. So please, let us not mis-interpret my words
> as the words of the board.
You said wrote to Alain " Quite frankly ? I think what you have said
here is, at best, extremely naive and at worst incredibly
irresponsible."
You use this kind of language most of the time and this is not good.
It is intimidating to new people trying to join discussion and air
their opinion and is clear expression of an autocratic mind. Why cant
you tolerate and maturely engage in a respectful way?
Alain say he respects AfriNIC directors and you are one of them. It
has nothing to do with your personal views. You are still a Director
of AfriNIC and an important person in your other capacities. Please
please just be mindful of peoples feelings and use euphemisms that can
deliver the same message in a respectful way.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 10:25:14 +0000
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
To: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID:
<AMSPR03MB53488A6A9DD33E0B3E91E06EEC20 at AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Jackson,
Again, let me clarify my use of wording:
Firstly - do I believe that it is irresponsible when I believe that someone is advocating for ignoring the law. Yes - I do, and my opinions my offend some, but I will not be limited in what I say because it may tread on toes if I believe what I am saying is the truth.
Secondly - when I use the word na?ve, let's look at the definition of such:
(of a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.
Do I believe that it is unwise to advocate for ignoring the act? Yes I do.
If my stating that I believe these things offends someone - then I apologise for offense caused. I do not however apologise for stating them.
It is a fine line we tread - where often the truth of a matter is disputed, and in taking any position, you are quite likely to offend someone who disagrees with your position, particularly when the position you are taking is taken in an unequivocal manner. In this case, I was unequivocal, it is my sincere and utmost believe that ignoring any text is unwise, reckless, irresponsible and shows a lack of judgement.
Again, as I stated in what I said to Mirriam, the section to which I was referring to was one specific line:
> One would expect the debate to stay at the community level and not involve the Act. The community to discuss and agree on how to manage this issue.
So - if I offended people through the choice of words - apologies. For the sentiment behind those words - those I stand by in entirety.
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Jackson Muthili [mailto:jacksonmuthi at gmail.com]
Sent: 03 October 2016 13:10
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: ALAIN AINA <aalain at trstech.net>; General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 2:49 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Writing in my personal capacity.
>
> Firstly, let me point out that anything I write on this list ? unless
> explicitly stated ? is written in my personal capacity and not as a
> director.
Why are you disrespectful of others in your personal capacity?
> What I write here is not necessarily representative of the wider board
> views and should the board be taking a position on something it will
> be communicated as such via the chairperson or someone delegated that
> responsibility by the board. So please, let us not mis-interpret my
> words as the words of the board.
You said wrote to Alain " Quite frankly ? I think what you have said here is, at best, extremely naive and at worst incredibly irresponsible."
You use this kind of language most of the time and this is not good.
It is intimidating to new people trying to join discussion and air their opinion and is clear expression of an autocratic mind. Why cant you tolerate and maturely engage in a respectful way?
Alain say he respects AfriNIC directors and you are one of them. It has nothing to do with your personal views. You are still a Director of AfriNIC and an important person in your other capacities. Please please just be mindful of peoples feelings and use euphemisms that can deliver the same message in a respectful way.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 16:34:22 +0300
From: "L.A. Ym" <landriam at ymail.com>
To: "Boubakar Barry" <Boubakar.Barry at wacren.net>, "General Discussions
of AFRINIC" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Cc: members-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Accountability
assessment- bylaws changes
Message-ID: <1C9E2EFFD30E451182FA79832E2A1C8B at toshiba>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
+1
Agree with Boubakar
Lala
From: Boubakar Barry
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 12:44 AM
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC
Cc: members-discuss at afrinic.net
Subject: Re: [members-discuss] [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment- bylaws changes
On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 9:05 PM, Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Sep 18, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Douglas Onyango <ondouglas at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Alan,
> Thanks for sharing this document. It will form a solid basis for continued
> deliberation on amendments of the bylaws.
>
> Regarding #1, specifically the Associate Members' right to (or not) vote, I
> was, and still I am opposed to the idea of rescinding the Associate Members
> rights to vote.
>
> Rationale: when an Associate Member is stripped of the right to vote,
> he/she is in reality as empowered -- or un-empowered -- as the rest of the
> AFRINIC community. AFRINIC would effectively be asking Associate members and
> prospects to fork out Associate Membership fees, but offering nothing over
> and above "AFRINIC community" status, which poses at least two problems:
> First, NO ONE of sound mind, with full understanding of these facts, would
> want to be an Associate members, and secondly, AFRINIC would be out-rightly
> fleecing its members by charging membership fees and providing no value in
> return, neither one of which is desirable.
>
> Therefore, the Associate Membership category should be imbued with voting
> rights -- or some other value add that is codified in the bylaws, barring
> which the category should effectively be expunged from the bylaws.
+1
If any tier is named "member", such as "associate member"; such tier
MUST be given voting rights. Absent of this - it would be a useless
membership status. Why be a member of an establishment that cannot let
one exercise a simple right like a vote to enable effect change?
Let associate members vote or get rid of this membership tier. Simple.
Not sure it's as simple as that.
Do we want to encourage people/organisations to be be associate members just because of granted voting rights that have the potential of affecting resource members only?
I know of organisations in which members are happy to be non-voting associate members because it gives them opportunities to contribute financially to the sustainability of these organisations, without benefiting from core services. Just because they share values of these organisations and want to support them.
We can of course think of advantages we can give to associate members to acknowledge their commitment and support. But I would not support giving voting rights to associate members. I would rather be for removing this membership category instead.
B.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> On 16 September 2016 at 17:17, Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 10 June, I posted a document describing potential areas for improvement
>> in the Bylaws as a result of an accountability assessment. I invited the
>> community and membership to comment on these issues.
>>
>> I have considered the discussion, and I have asked the legal adviser to
>> draft appropriate changes to the bylaws. In some cases, I have edited the
>> legal adviser?s text. In some cases, more drafting work is needed and
>> proposed text of bylaws changes is not yet available.
>>
>> I attach a document with the proposed bylaws changes.
>>
>> Alan Barrett
>> CEO, AFRINIC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Douglas Onyango, PRINCE 2, ITILv3
> UG: +256 776 716 138
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
_______________________________________________
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Message: 7
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:43:47 +0000
From: Ben Roberts <Ben.Roberts at liquidtelecom.com>
To: ALAIN AINA <Alain.Aina at wacren.net>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>,
"members-discuss at afrinic.net" <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Accountability
assessment - bylaws changes
Message-ID: <F8EC20AA-3E02-4978-9F15-CF872BF8CFA6 at liquidtelecom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
While we debate what consensus means I maybe have lost the thread of what we were looking for consensus on. ?
There was something about associate members and if they should have voting rights I recall?
Associate member category is really for interested parties who want to 'join in' but not be part of things properly and pay the full fees and use the services. So maybe it might include research partners, people who want to come along to our meetings and present and sell us stuff, etc etc
So no. The associate member category should not have the same voting benefits as a LIR member.
Sent from my iPhone
On 20 Sep 2016, at 11:24 PM, ALAIN AINA <Alain.Aina at wacren.net<mailto:Alain.Aina at wacren.net>> wrote:
Hi,
On Sep 20, 2016, at 9:27 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
Ok,
We need to stop for a moment and look at reality ? not wishful thinking.
Firstly ? I am hearing talk of rough consensus ? and while consensus is applicable in many areas, I am far from convinced this is one of them. The ONLY place consensus has in this regard is to get a vague indication of which way the vote may go on a particular issue. However, you can get total consensus on this list and beyond ? and still stand a good chance of things not passing.
Why is this ? consensus is defined as being reached when all substantive objections have been addressed. However, a substantive objection has to have meaning, that is to say, there is some validity in what people are objecting to. And those can all be addressed, but when the non-substantive, the illogical, the uninformed, the emotional, or whatever, arguments come into it ? those cannot be taken into account in consensus. However, to accept or reject bylaw changes is not done by consensus. It is done by *super majority* vote.
So, get all the consensus you like, you have a VAGUE indication ? but nothing more than that ? because if people on the day go ?I don?t like this, and it?s not worth arguing about, so I will simply argue with my vote?, and they vote no, things still won?t pass.
Until we amend the bylaws(as suggested by point 11 of the CEO document [ Modification to the Bylaws or Constitution]), the ?Super Majority? you are referring to means "Super Majority of the registered members (the current Board members)". So the board could easily amend the bylaws without involving the community if it is only the voting which matter.
By involving the community, one expects that we listen to community, helps the community build consensus on the amendments and then adopt them by the "Super Majority".
This community only makes decision by Rough Consensus and does not vote. Voting is for the members who are the "Registered members".
So, let me now talk about committees ? for what purpose? So that the ?committee? can propose something and people just accept it? So that the ?committee? can judge consensus somehow better than one person? So the ?committee? can take all the inputs and collate them into some nice document better than one person can?
Yes and also lead the consensus building.
It is also important to note that while amending bylaws to improve accountability is it not advisable that ?Only" interested parties (CEO, board..) lead the process.
Guess what ? it?s all meaningless ? because at the end of the day ? no matter who proposes, no matter what form ? if members like the PRINCIPLE behind the change, they will vote in favor of it. If they don?t, no matter who proposes it, they will vote against it. And committees, individuals, whatever, it?s all meaningless if on the day, the *SUPER MAJORITY VOTE* does not pass. That means for every 1 vote that is cast against, there must be 3 votes for. This is not a feel good game ? this is the law. In the same way, any individual can bring something to the floor and once its n the notice of meeting while it can be discussed on the floor, the resolution *CANNOT BE CHANGED* other than basic minor edits ? it can only be withdrawn.
Yes ? I like the idea of consensus to gauge what may or may not pass ? and I believe that is what Alan has been trying to gauge before putting things to the floor.
End of the day though ?it?s a nice idea, but has zero impact on the outcome.
Not sure. We did a bylaws review in 2012 and the approach did work smoothly
Hope this helps
?Alain
Andrew
From: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com<mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>>
Reply-To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Date: Monday, 19 September 2016 at 22:14
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Cc: "members-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>" <members-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Accountability assessment - bylaws changes
+1 @Alain
Regards
Arnaud
2016-09-19 19:56 GMT+00:00 ALAIN AINA <Alain.Aina at wacren.net<mailto:Alain.Aina at wacren.net>>:
Hi,
Let?s fix the process and better organise this critical review of the bylawsl. I do support the idea of a committee .
?Alain
On Sep 19, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Bope Domilongo Christian <christianbope at gmail.com<mailto:christianbope at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear CEO,
[speaking as a member of the community]
Following last week discussion on the accountability review and others points raised by the community which was not in your original document, here my response.
1. On the Accountability Review.
This review is from an independent AFRINIC's accountability review which identified areas need to be improved. Improving RIR accountability is very important in this context of IANA stewardship transition where the community will be exercising important role in the oversight of the IANA functions.
So it is very crucial that the community gives this discussion the required attention and the consensual approach is more needed.
It will be unfortunate if we did not follow these important improvements due to lack of consensus.
2. on the Process
It was expected that the community discuss, express view and concern thereafter the Leadership will do his best effort to build consensus. Consensus here is strictly in the sense of RIR practices mean The Rough Consensus Model [1].
Ideally, people shall be encourage to comment on the list for the sake of archive and off list contribution should be discouraged and not accepted.
That why some members of the community suggested the creation of a committee to lead the process.
3. On the discussion.
Community has expressed views on each points. As expected there were convergences and divergences. For example, points 3,4, 5 had active and intensive discussions while reading may sound like profound disagreement. We shall now entire to the consensus building mode by opening the disagreement views and addressing one by one then we'll build ROUGH CONSENSUS.
Another example, on point 11, there was no objection, but some suggestions even propose more such as "Registered Members only MUST never amend the bylaws, ..." and The proposed amendment should be published not less than 60 days and not more than 90 days before, with the provisions for more members to comment online and in any meeting held during the consultation period"
4. On the other points.
Beyond the 12 points, some areas of improvements were suggested.
For example, https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2016-June/000350.html lists some of the points
[1] https://www.nro.net/about-the-nro/rir-accountability on section 1.4
Regards,
Bope
On 19 September 2016 at 17:03, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com<mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
I agree with the sentiments as echoed by Boubakar below.
Thanks
Andrew
From: Mike Silber <silber.mike at gmail.com<mailto:silber.mike at gmail.com>>
Reply-To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Date: Monday, 19 September 2016 at 10:39
To: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Cc: "members-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>" <members-discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:members-discuss at afrinic.net>>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - bylaws changes
On 18 Sep 2016, at 23:44, Boubakar Barry <Boubakar.Barry at wacren.net<mailto:Boubakar.Barry at wacren.net>> wrote:
?
We can of course think of advantages we can give to associate members to acknowledge their commitment and support. But I would not support giving voting rights to associate members. I would rather be for removing this membership category instead.
Boubakar +1
_______________________________________________
Members-Discuss mailing list
Members-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Members-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
_______________________________________________
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss at afrinic.net<mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
_______________________________________________
Members-Discuss mailing list
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https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 08:50:50 +0300
From: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack at gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>,
afnog <afnog at afnog.org>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe
Message-ID:
<CAKX6dsFOUjyiir0EYju-NvnbzRvAxAJa1V9T6U83hfwHf4jbTA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Well done Andrew and Liquid,
Way to go, where next?:-)
Regards
On 9/29/16, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> So, let another exciting announcement ? I apologize for the cross posting to
> both lists but I figured there were aspects of interest in both forums in
> what follows.
>
> Yesterday we turned up IPv6 on our consumer products in Zimbabwe. There are
> now in excess of 10 thousand FTTH users in Zimbabwe with active, live,
> native IPv6 ? and they are actively using it. This was the next phase after
> our smaller rollout in Kenya done a few weeks ago.
>
> We crossed the 1.5gigabit/second of consumer v6 traffic last night in that
> particular location ? and even more exciting, more than 70% of that traffic
> was sourced from CDN nodes and African peering ? it did NOT come via long
> distance international links from Europe.
>
> On the AFRINIC side ? we followed the policy and registered each and every
> static customer assignment in the whois database ? it held up well as we
> sent a bulk update with close to 15 thousand /48 assignments in a single
> update ? my congrats to the AfriNIC team because that was one hell of a long
> update to process in one go.
>
> So, with that said, others talk about being IPv6 ready ? we can now proudly
> say we have gone from being IPv6 ready to being truly IPv6 active.
>
> I expect the google stats and apnic stats will probably update in the next 2
> or 3 days and it will be curious to see what shows up. Let?s wait and see
> as the updates happen.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
--
Barrack O. Otieno
+254721325277
+254733206359
Skype: barrack.otieno
PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 11:49:09 +0530
From: ARTHUR CARINDAL <arthur at afrinic.net>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>,
afnog <afnog at afnog.org>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe
Message-ID: <78A43B26-660D-4B1A-94D5-339715D6ED62 at afrinic.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Dear Andrew
We did appreciate your collaboration. And once again, well done!
Regards
_______________________________________________________________
Arthur Carindal N.
Head of Member Services, AFRINIC Ltd.
t: +230 403 5100 | f: +230 466 6758 | tt: @afrinic | w: www.afrinic.net<http://www.afrinic.net> <http://www.afrinic.net/>
facebook.com/afrinic <http://facebook.com/afrinic> | flickr.com/afrinic <http://flickr.com/afrinic> | youtube.com/afrinicmedia <http://youtube.com/afrinicmedia>
_______________________________________________________________
Join us for the AFRINIC-25 meeting in Mauritius, 25 to 30 November 2016
> On 29 Sep 2016, at 10:39 AM, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> So, let another exciting announcement ? I apologize for the cross posting to both lists but I figured there were aspects of interest in both forums in what follows.
>
> Yesterday we turned up IPv6 on our consumer products in Zimbabwe. There are now in excess of 10 thousand FTTH users in Zimbabwe with active, live, native IPv6 ? and they are actively using it. This was the next phase after our smaller rollout in Kenya done a few weeks ago.
>
> We crossed the 1.5gigabit/second of consumer v6 traffic last night in that particular location ? and even more exciting, more than 70% of that traffic was sourced from CDN nodes and African peering ? it did NOT come via long distance international links from Europe.
>
> On the AFRINIC side ? we followed the policy and registered each and every static customer assignment in the whois database ? it held up well as we sent a bulk update with close to 15 thousand /48 assignments in a single update ? my congrats to the AfriNIC team because that was one hell of a long update to process in one go.
>
> So, with that said, others talk about being IPv6 ready ? we can now proudly say we have gone from being IPv6 ready to being truly IPv6 active.
>
> I expect the google stats and apnic stats will probably update in the next 2 or 3 days and it will be curious to see what shows up. Let?s wait and see as the updates happen.
>
> Thanks
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> afnog mailing list
> https://www.afnog.org/mailman/listinfo/afnog <https://www.afnog.org/mailman/listinfo/afnog>
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 10:50:07 +0400
From: Musa Stephen Honlue <honlue at gmail.com>
To: Barrack Otieno <otieno.barrack at gmail.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>,
afnog <afnog at afnog.org>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe
Message-ID:
<CAJrNOvH3nLKNXmUJHsyiTXy=p1cyCWDsXs4Y4pnWwQ6kHWsDaA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Well done.
On Sep 29, 2016 09:51, "Barrack Otieno" <otieno.barrack at gmail.com> wrote:
> Well done Andrew and Liquid,
>
> Way to go, where next?:-)
>
>
> Regards
>
> On 9/29/16, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> > Hi Guys,
> >
> > So, let another exciting announcement ? I apologize for the cross
> posting to
> > both lists but I figured there were aspects of interest in both forums in
> > what follows.
> >
> > Yesterday we turned up IPv6 on our consumer products in Zimbabwe. There
> are
> > now in excess of 10 thousand FTTH users in Zimbabwe with active, live,
> > native IPv6 ? and they are actively using it. This was the next phase
> after
> > our smaller rollout in Kenya done a few weeks ago.
> >
> > We crossed the 1.5gigabit/second of consumer v6 traffic last night in
> that
> > particular location ? and even more exciting, more than 70% of that
> traffic
> > was sourced from CDN nodes and African peering ? it did NOT come via long
> > distance international links from Europe.
> >
> > On the AFRINIC side ? we followed the policy and registered each and
> every
> > static customer assignment in the whois database ? it held up well as we
> > sent a bulk update with close to 15 thousand /48 assignments in a single
> > update ? my congrats to the AfriNIC team because that was one hell of a
> long
> > update to process in one go.
> >
> > So, with that said, others talk about being IPv6 ready ? we can now
> proudly
> > say we have gone from being IPv6 ready to being truly IPv6 active.
> >
> > I expect the google stats and apnic stats will probably update in the
> next 2
> > or 3 days and it will be curious to see what shows up. Let?s wait and
> see
> > as the updates happen.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Barrack O. Otieno
> +254721325277
> +254733206359
> Skype: barrack.otieno
> PGP ID: 0x2611D86A
>
> _______________________________________________
> afnog mailing list
> https://www.afnog.org/mailman/listinfo/afnog
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 11:48:59 +0300
From: "Miku, E. Cornelius" <miku.ec at gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>,
afnog <afnog at afnog.org>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe
Message-ID:
<CAOx2ZBDp=wz7UiSa5jV1HBHGLzNS8AjUSL6R1O9GNa43pogRGQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Interesting news in deed.
Congrats Andrew and Team. And AfriNIC.
Regards,
--
Miku
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 8:09 AM, Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>
>
> So, let another exciting announcement ? I apologize for the cross posting
> to both lists but I figured there were aspects of interest in both forums
> in what follows.
>
>
>
> Yesterday we turned up IPv6 on our consumer products in Zimbabwe. There
> are now in excess of 10 thousand FTTH users in Zimbabwe with active, live,
> native IPv6 ? and they are actively using it. This was the next phase
> after our smaller rollout in Kenya done a few weeks ago.
>
>
>
> We crossed the 1.5gigabit/second of consumer v6 traffic last night in that
> particular location ? and even more exciting, more than 70% of that traffic
> was sourced from CDN nodes and African peering ? it did NOT come via long
> distance international links from Europe.
>
>
>
> On the AFRINIC side ? we followed the policy and registered each and every
> static customer assignment in the whois database ? it held up well as we
> sent a bulk update with close to 15 thousand /48 assignments in a single
> update ? my congrats to the AfriNIC team because that was one hell of a
> long update to process in one go.
>
>
>
> So, with that said, others talk about being IPv6 ready ? we can now
> proudly say we have gone from being IPv6 ready to being truly IPv6 active.
>
>
>
> I expect the google stats and apnic stats will probably update in the next
> 2 or 3 days and it will be curious to see what shows up. Let?s wait and
> see as the updates happen.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> afnog mailing list
> https://www.afnog.org/mailman/listinfo/afnog
>
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------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2016 17:29:38 +0400
From: Loganaden Velvindron <loganaden at gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>,
afnog <afnog at afnog.org>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] [afnog] IPv6 in Zimbabwe
Message-ID:
<CAOp4FwSkNiLX=fnmoWbLRrhEF=oaz3GfBVcViqRChN323b5E1g at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Andrew Alston
<Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
>
>
> So, let another exciting announcement ? I apologize for the cross posting to
> both lists but I figured there were aspects of interest in both forums in
> what follows.
>
>
>
> Yesterday we turned up IPv6 on our consumer products in Zimbabwe. There are
> now in excess of 10 thousand FTTH users in Zimbabwe with active, live,
> native IPv6 ? and they are actively using it. This was the next phase after
> our smaller rollout in Kenya done a few weeks ago.
>
>
>
> We crossed the 1.5gigabit/second of consumer v6 traffic last night in that
> particular location ? and even more exciting, more than 70% of that traffic
> was sourced from CDN nodes and African peering ? it did NOT come via long
> distance international links from Europe.
>
>
>
> On the AFRINIC side ? we followed the policy and registered each and every
> static customer assignment in the whois database ? it held up well as we
> sent a bulk update with close to 15 thousand /48 assignments in a single
> update ? my congrats to the AfriNIC team because that was one hell of a long
> update to process in one go.
>
>
>
> So, with that said, others talk about being IPv6 ready ? we can now proudly
> say we have gone from being IPv6 ready to being truly IPv6 active.
>
>
>
> I expect the google stats and apnic stats will probably update in the next 2
> or 3 days and it will be curious to see what shows up. Let?s wait and see
> as the updates happen.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
Hi Andrew,
Congratulations, what is the particular model for the CPE ?
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 04:41:46 -0600
From: Jackson Muthili <jacksonmuthi at gmail.com>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID:
<CA+DdLrTDvvUsB+=D4KVz6Szh1_f+0yssp0cG5n5ev=jpf28Wdg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 4:25 AM, Andrew Alston
<Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
> Jackson,
>
> Again, let me clarify my use of wording:
>
> Firstly - do I believe that it is irresponsible when I believe that someone is advocating for ignoring the law. Yes - I do, and my opinions my offend some, but I will not be limited in what I say because it may tread on toes if I believe what I am saying is the truth.
>
> Secondly - when I use the word na?ve, let's look at the definition of such:
>
> (of a person or action) showing a lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.
>
> Do I believe that it is unwise to advocate for ignoring the act? Yes I do.
>
> If my stating that I believe these things offends someone - then I apologise for offense caused. I do not however apologise for stating them.
>
> It is a fine line we tread - where often the truth of a matter is disputed, and in taking any position, you are quite likely to offend someone who disagrees with your position, particularly when the position you are taking is taken in an unequivocal manner. In this case, I was unequivocal, it is my sincere and utmost believe that ignoring any text is unwise, reckless, irresponsible and shows a lack of judgement.
>
> Again, as I stated in what I said to Mirriam, the section to which I was referring to was one specific line:
>
>> One would expect the debate to stay at the community level and not involve the Act. The community to discuss and agree on how to manage this issue.
>
> So - if I offended people through the choice of words - apologies. For the sentiment behind those words - those I stand by in entirety.
For the record I agree with the principles behind your argument.
You could however use a better choice of words to avoid annoying
people and deliver the same message politely and respectfully. Yes I
know what naive and irresponsible mean. When dealing with fellow
adults and professionals those words are mostly inappropriate.
The intent behind which Alain stated his arguments was not a bad one.
You cannot call him naive and irresponsible because your viewpoint and
his did not align. Simply make known civilly (and calmly) your
viewpoint. He will then be more open to understanding yours.
--
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 15:03:05 +0400
From: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID: <84611736-F109-4BE6-9FC9-4ED7A1290EF8 at afrinic.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear Andrew,
I ask that you use more diplomatic words to express your opinions.
Alan Barrett
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 11:12:11 +0000
From: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
To: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID:
<AMSPR03MB534337F8881187704E235B4EEC20 at AMSPR03MB534.eurprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
Alan,
Again, and this will be my last word on the subject -
I have very strong opinions on what was stated in that line that I have quoted in my previous two emails on this subject. These are opinions, and I believe that the sentiment that I wished to convey was that the words used could have ramifications and were dangerous. If someone can give me a more diplomatic way to convey the same sentiment - I'm more than happy to hear it - many times my words are designed to convey a sentiment and unfortunately cause offense - happy to learn new words - so long as the sentiment behind the words remains the same :)
Andrew
-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Barrett [mailto:alan.barrett at afrinic.net]
Sent: 03 October 2016 14:03
To: Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Dear Andrew,
I ask that you use more diplomatic words to express your opinions.
Alan Barrett
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 11:19:49 +0000
From: Boubakar Barry <boubakarbarry at gmail.com>
To: Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net>
Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
Message-ID:
<CAGrBSSh_gVSusMuyEwkBEpaxV+9=kXRyr0GKK0L+KiwHiTc+1g at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
I don't think it's about diplomacy; it's rather about politeness and
maturity.
Boubakar
On Monday, 3 October 2016, Alan Barrett <alan.barrett at afrinic.net> wrote:
> Dear Andrew,
>
> I ask that you use more diplomatic words to express your opinions.
>
> Alan Barrett
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <javascript:;>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
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