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<div>While we debate what consensus means I maybe have lost the thread of what we were looking for consensus on. ?</div>
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<div id="AppleMailSignature">There was something about associate members and if they should have voting rights I recall?</div>
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<div id="AppleMailSignature">Associate member category is really for interested parties who want to 'join in' but not be part of things properly and pay the full fees and use the services. So maybe it might include research partners, people who want to come
along to our meetings and present and sell us stuff, etc etc</div>
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<div id="AppleMailSignature">So no. The associate member category should not have the same voting benefits as a LIR member. <br>
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Sent from my iPhone</div>
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On 20 Sep 2016, at 11:24 PM, ALAIN AINA <<a href="mailto:Alain.Aina@wacren.net">Alain.Aina@wacren.net</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div class="">Hi,</div>
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<div class="">On Sep 20, 2016, at 9:27 AM, Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Ok,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">We need to stop for a moment and look at reality – not wishful thinking.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Firstly – I am hearing talk of rough consensus – and while consensus is applicable in many areas, I am far from convinced this is one of them. The ONLY place consensus has in this regard is to get
a vague indication of which way the vote may go on a particular issue. However, you can get total consensus on this list and beyond – and still stand a good chance of things not passing.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Why is this – consensus is defined as being reached when all substantive objections have been addressed. However, a substantive objection has to have meaning, that is to say, there is some validity
in what people are objecting to. And those can all be addressed, but when the non-substantive, the illogical, the uninformed, the emotional, or whatever, arguments come into it – those cannot be taken into account in consensus. However, to accept or reject
bylaw changes is not done by consensus. It is done by *<b class="">super majority</b>* vote.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">So, get all the consensus you like, you have a VAGUE indication – but nothing more than that – because if people on the day go “I don’t like this, and it’s not worth arguing about, so I will simply
argue with my vote”, and they vote no, things still won’t pass. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></div>
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<div>Until we amend the bylaws(as suggested by point 11 of the CEO document [ Modification to the Bylaws or Constitution]), the “Super Majority” you are referring to means "Super Majority of the registered members (the current Board members)". So the board
could easily amend the bylaws without involving the community if it is only the voting which matter.</div>
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<div>By involving the community, one expects that we listen to community, helps the community build consensus on the amendments and then adopt them by the "Super Majority".</div>
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<div>This community only makes decision by Rough Consensus and does not vote. Voting is for the members who are the "Registered members".</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">So, let me now talk about committees – for what purpose? So that the “committee” can propose something and people just accept it? So that the “committee” can judge consensus somehow better than
one person? So the “committee” can take all the inputs and collate them into some nice document better than one person can?</span></div>
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<div>Yes and also lead the consensus building.</div>
<div> It is also important to note that while amending bylaws to improve accountability is it not advisable that “Only" interested parties (CEO, board..) lead the process.</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Guess what – it’s all meaningless – because at the end of the day – no matter who proposes, no matter what form – if members like the PRINCIPLE behind the change, they will vote in favor of it.
If they don’t, no matter who proposes it, they will vote against it. And committees, individuals, whatever, it’s all meaningless if on the day, the *<b class="">SUPER MAJORITY VOTE</b>* does not pass. That means for every 1 vote that is cast against, there
must be 3 votes for. This is not a feel good game – this is the law. In the same way, any individual can bring something to the floor and once its n the notice of meeting while it can be discussed on the floor, the resolution *<b class="">CANNOT BE CHANGED</b>*
other than basic minor edits – it can only be withdrawn. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Yes – I like the idea of consensus to gauge what may or may not pass – and I believe that is what Alan has been trying to gauge before putting things to the floor.
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">End of the day though –</span><span style="font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;" class="">it’s a nice idea, but has zero impact on the outcome.</span></div>
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<div>Not sure. We did a bylaws review in 2012 and the approach did work smoothly</div>
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<div>Hope this helps</div>
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<div>—Alain</div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Andrew<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">Arnaud AMELINA <<a href="mailto:amelnaud@gmail.com" class="">amelnaud@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Reply-To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net" class="">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, 19 September 2016 at 22:14<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net" class="">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net" class="">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net" class="">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Accountability assessment - bylaws changes<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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+1 @Alain<o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Regards<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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Arnaud<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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2016-09-19 19:56 GMT+00:00 ALAIN AINA <<a href="mailto:Alain.Aina@wacren.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Alain.Aina@wacren.net</a>>:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Hi,<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Let’s fix the process and better organise this critical review of the bylawsl. I do support the idea of a committee .<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="color: rgb(136, 136, 136);" class="">—Alain<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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On Sep 19, 2016, at 4:25 PM, Bope Domilongo Christian <<a href="mailto:christianbope@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">christianbope@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">Dear CEO,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">[speaking as a member of the community]</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">Following last week discussion on the accountability review and others points raised by the community which was not in your original document, here my response.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">1. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On the Accountability Review.</b></span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">This review is from an independent AFRINIC's accountability review which identified areas need to be improved. Improving RIR accountability is very important in this context
of IANA stewardship transition where the community will be exercising important role in the oversight of the IANA functions.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">So it is very crucial that the community gives this discussion the required attention and the consensual approach is more needed.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">It will be unfortunate if we did not follow these important improvements due to lack of consensus.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<b class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">2. on the Process</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">It was expected that the community discuss, express view and concern thereafter the Leadership will do his best effort to build consensus. Consensus here is strictly in the
sense of RIR practices mean The Rough Consensus Model<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">[1]</b>.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">Ideally, people shall be encourage to comment on the list for the sake of archive and off list contribution should be discouraged and not accepted.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">That why some members of the community suggested the creation of a committee to lead the process.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<b class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">3. On the discussion.</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">Community has expressed views on each points. As expected there were convergences and divergences. For example, points 3,4, 5 had active and intensive discussions while reading
may sound like profound disagreement. We shall now entire to the consensus building mode by opening the disagreement views and addressing one by one then we'll build ROUGH CONSENSUS.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">Another example, on point 11, there was no objection, but some suggestions even propose more such as "Registered Members only MUST never amend the bylaws, ..." and The proposed
amendment should be published not less than 60 days and not more than 90 days before, with the provisions for more members to comment online and in any meeting held during the consultation period" </span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<b class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">4. On the other points.</span></b><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">Beyond the 12 points, some areas of improvements were suggested.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt; line-height: 19.933334350585938px;" class="">For example,<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2016-June/000350.html" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2016-June/000350.html</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>lists
some of the points</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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<b class=""><span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt;" class="">[1]</span></b><span lang="EN" style="font-size: 13pt;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.nro.net/about-the-nro/rir-accountability" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.nro.net/about-the-nro/rir-accountability</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>on
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On 19 September 2016 at 17:03, Andrew Alston <<a href="mailto:Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Andrew.Alston@liquidtelecom.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">I agree with the sentiments as echoed by Boubakar below.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Thanks</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri;" class="">Andrew</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<b class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></b><span style="font-family: Calibri;" class="">Mike Silber <<a href="mailto:silber.mike@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">silber.mike@gmail.com</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Reply-To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Date:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, 19 September 2016 at 10:39<br class="">
<b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>General Discussions of AFRINIC <<a href="mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">community-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>" <<a href="mailto:members-discuss@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">members-discuss@afrinic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - bylaws changes</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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On 18 Sep 2016, at 23:44, Boubakar Barry <<a href="mailto:Boubakar.Barry@wacren.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Boubakar.Barry@wacren.net</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: ArialMT;" class="">We can of course think of advantages we can give to associate members to acknowledge their commitment and support. But I would not support giving voting rights to associate members. I would rather
be for removing this membership category instead.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></p>
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_______________________________________________<br class="">
Members-Discuss mailing list<br class="">
<a href="mailto:Members-Discuss@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Members-Discuss@afrinic.net</a><br class="">
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mailing list</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
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