[rpd] Selecting WG Co-Chairs: Was Re: Can a Consensual Decision of the PDWG Violate the PDP? (was: Report from Recall Committee)

[Owen DeLong]

> On Feb 21, 2021, at 7:33 AM, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:

> 

> Jordi, article 11.4 is completely out of the PDP.

> 

> Even if this exists in the AfriNic bylaws the Board of Directors is not authorized by the community to adopting policies without the prior consensus of the community. You are preferring something that is illegal.

> 

> 

Fernando, you are mistaken here.

The board has the power to set the policies by which AFRINIC administers resources. The board delegates that power to the PDWG through the PDP which still requires that the board ratify any policy proposed for adoption by the PDWG.

The bylaws of the corporation are the institutional guiding document of the corporation. The CPM and the PDP contained therein are subject to the bylaws, not the other way around.

> In the case the Board understands they can do such thing just because it is written in the bylaws it has the potential to create an unprecedented thing which could lead to ICANN stop recognizing AfriNic as a RIR for voiding ICP-2 which states the bottom-up self-governance structure for setting local policies. ICP-2 is not just for creating a new RIR, but if it was recognized based on that it must keep committing to those principles. Even in a urgent situation if considered like this, it cannot do based on the bylaws as bylaws doesn't regulate bottom-up self-governance and cannot go against ICP-2.

> 

People continue to refer to ICP-2 as if it is some magical document governing the conduct of RIRs once they are chartered.

ICP-2 is a document describing the IANA process for establishing a new RIR…

The first paragraph of ICP-2 reads:
IMPORTANT NOTICE. The following Internet Coordination Policy is being posted for the information of the Internet community. It contains a statement of policy followed by the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) in administering the system for allocation and assignment of Internet Protocol (IP) addresses.

It does not continue to govern the RIR once it is established and accredited. Said governance is entirely up to the membership and (where and to the extent delegated by the board or the membership) by committees, working groups, and/or the community at large.

So please, can we stop with the endless erroneous claims about ICP-2 and the power of the community over the board? It simply doesn’t exist.

AFIRINIC and every other RIR is a corporation with traditional corporate governance structures.

Owen


> Fernando

> 

> On 21/02/2021 05:28, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:

>> Hi Daniel,

>>  

>> My personal preference was stated: The Board, according to bylaws 11.4 *may* set a policy for having a way out of this situation and not wasting more time, possibly by asking the community a set of candidates and then they making the decision.

>>  

>> This is something explicitly mention in other RIRs. This was also accepted by the community by consensus in a policy that reached consensus but the board hasn’t yet ratified for surprising reasons.

>>  

>> I’ve asked the board (copied again, because we didn’t get a response), to confirm if their interpretation of Article 11.4 will allow that. Can the Board please confirm?

>>  

>> HOWEVER, all that said, my understanding from the summary of the last few days discussion and the latest inputs is that most of the community that have spoken prefer elections. I’m fine either way. I just want to make sure that neutral chairs are working ASAP.

>>  

>> Note that in general, I will also prefer elections. Remember that I was the one many months ago, pushing for that, and that it is also stated in another of my policy proposals. In fact, as some people doubts about on-line elections, the Board could follow 11.4 to set a policy for on-line elections, so nobody is in doubt that this is a valid choice.

>>  

>> Someone can say that I’m contradicting myself: NO. What I’m saying is that if we can reach an agreement on something, let’s do it and in that case my preference is on-line elections, but otherwise, we need someone, and the Board could interpret with the bylaws that they are the right one, to take a decision and move on. What I’m against is anything that delays for more than a couple of months having chairs working.

>>  

>> Regards,

>> Jordi

>> 

>> @jordipalet

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>>  

>> El 21/2/21 6:25, "Daniel Yakmut" <yakmutd at googlemail.com <mailto:yakmutd at googlemail.com>> escribió:

>>  

>> Good morning Jordi,

>>  

>> Are you asking the board to suspend the cpm and every  other rule that drives the PDP, by creating or enacting an interim byelaw?

>>  

>> What is so difficult in conducting an election. I remembered we did an electronic voting recently. I see most of the suggestions presented in some way or the other violates the cpm and the PDP.

>>  

>> Therefore, let us simply work with the fact that we don't have co-chairs, let us forget any tenure completion, rather let us have co-chairs that are starting a tenure afresh. This means constituting a nomcom, that will make the necessary calls and conduct an election. Make the time shorter because of the urgency.

>>  

>> I think we can suspend all actions for now, and sort this  matter first.

>>  

>> Simply

>> Daniel

>>  

>> On Feb 19, 2021 9:36 AM, "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD" <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

>> Hi Sunday,

>>  

>> The problem of making a selection in the PDWG in an open way, trying to reach consensus is that:

>> 1.       There is a high risk that you have more than 2 candidates.

>> 

>> 2.       There is a risk of people not willing to “openly” support or object to the candidates.

>> 

>> 3.       It means, in case of 1 above, more time -> you need to fall back to elections.

>> 

>>  

>> Instead going to the option 1 that most of the people in the PDWG supported, allows do to the same in terms of results. We did that last time. We had initially 4 or 5 candidates for a single position, some people in the PDWG openly (and I guess in private) suggested to the candidates to step down in favor of just one candidate, and it happened. This save a lot of time, because it happens in paralel to the elections, so is a “risk-free” option.

>>  

>> Now, as you are asking me to state what was my position … before all this started I said it in the list:

>>  

>> See point 1 at https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/012234.html <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/012234.html>.

>>  

>> I guess most of the people didn't noticed it. So this is consistent with choices 3 & 4 and with my last explanations.

>>  

>> I don’t think any choice we take is agains the PDP, because it is an unprecedent situation, very simple, but beyond that, the Board can make use of the bylaws to make a temporary policy that amends the PDP, decide on the process they wish and then, once we have a meeting, the community can make a new choice.

>>  

>> However, as said, because I think consensus is what we should follow, I’m fine with any other choice that works and don’t create troubles or discrimination.

>>  

>> Regards,

>> Jordi

>> 

>> @jordipalet

>> 

>>  

>> 

>>  

>>  

>> El 18/2/21 23:33, "Sunday Folayan" <sfolayan at skannet.com <mailto:sfolayan at skannet.com>> escribió:

>>  

>> Jordi,

>> 

>> First of all, A lot of thoughts and work went into the summary of the discussions that you made. Your contributions and efforts are quite appreciated. Merci Beacoup.

>> 

>> Having said that, I have not changed my position since you started the Pre co-chair selection coordination, (ie Follow the provisions of the CPM, appoint WG Chairs, do not ask the Board to appoint WG Chairs) It may not be so popular in terms of how many times it has been repeated, but it is consistent with the CPM.

>> Regarding the deadline and the transmission you made to the Board, the purpose of the deadline was to give an input to the Board, supposedly before its meeting, but ... Does the WG need any Board action? The answer is NO! Was that a procedural error? YES.  Am I complaining now? NO!  Can it be rectified? YES!

>> 

>> What is your take on Sylvian's request on the need to follow the CPM provisions?

>> At some point, you mentioned not having a preference, about the probable course of action. Perhaps it is time to reveal your preference. Do you agree with following the subsisting provisions of the CPM?

>> 

>> Sunday.

>> 

>>  

>> On 2/18/21 10:47 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:

>> Hi Sunday,

>>  

>> I started by saying that if someone else want to do it … and nobody responded. I even pointed that may be the RC can do it.

>> 

>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/012299.html <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/012299.html> (also see previous emails asking the Board and CEO to move on, etc.)

>> 

>> We had a deadline (17th), during all those days, nobody objected, nobody voluntered. I stayed silent about my own personal opinion, and a few hours before the deadline, released the summary.

>> 

>> If anyone volunterred ahead of the deadline, I will just provided him the notes that I was taking, so he/she could have continued.

>> 

>> So I can’t agree in your point about this.

>> 

>> So complaining afterwards, and not having volunteered, is like what we say in spain "Like the dog in the manger, neither eats nor lets eat", not sure if this has a better translation in English in terms of an equivalent expression.

>> 

>> I’m sorry to be a person of “actions”, but definitively will not “wait forever” if nobody else is acting. So yes, I’m guilty for that. Guilty for ensuring that we provide inputs before a deadline that was set to the PDWG.

>> 

>> I will love to see if the staff can do their own review of all the inputs and can say that the conclusion is different …

>> 

>> Let’s see if that happens.

>> 

>> Regards,

>> Jordi

>>  

>>  

>> El 18/2/21 21:23, "Sunday Folayan" <sfolayan at skannet.com <mailto:sfolayan at skannet.com>> escribió:

>>  

>> Sylvain,

>> You wrote

>> 

>> "10| Let's back to the PDP to do the only task  we PDWG are allowed to do without our Chairs.  Sunday, please can you handle the process  to help the PDWG to enforce its PDP?"

>>  

>>  

>> Enforcing the PDP is not the role of anyone person. We all should be active and vigilant.

>> 

>> I can initiate things, by pointing out that many wrongs do not make a right. Sometimes, in haste, we fail to look at the details, nor pause to look at small details. No matter how far one may have gone in a wrong direction, it is best to course-correct as soon as possible.

>>  

>> Jordi acted in good faith,  with some level of urgency to move the group forward, but missed a very important step ... ie properly volunteer to be a temporary WG Co-Chair, and wait for some acclamation. It will not have called for his legitimacy being questioned, specifically by Arnaud with:

>>  

>> "Who appointed  you in this role? don’t you think board, staff are following discussions and can make their own minds and judgment on the discussions and  the  outcomes? Or is your intention to influence or bias discussion".

>>  

>> I still insist that the provisions of the PDP, according to the CPM is:

>>  

>> "If the Working Group Chair is unable to serve his or her full term, the Working Group may select a replacement to serve the remainder of the term. If the Working Group Chairs are unable to attend the Public Policy Meeting, the Working Group shall nominate a Chair for the session. Anyone present at the meeting, whether in person or by remote participation, may participate in the selection process for a temporary Chair"

>> 

>> 

>> 

>>  

>> See the word selection process there? That is what we need to define by consensus. As a working group, we can select our Co-Chairs, by simply asking the staff/Policy Liaison to call for volunteers, and shepherd the process, reverting always to the WG for guidance, when needed (which ultimately defines the process)

>>  

>> I like the proposition by Noah, specifically:

>>  

>> "Can AFRINIC staff and specifically Madhvi take up the lead and work with the WG to ensure that its following the CPM to fill the vacancy.  I dont support the rushed work that was done here by Jordi since there is already claims of misinteretation.  Please afford this working group time to self organise"

>>  

>> I urge everyone to adopt it, as a way forward with an Affirmative YES.  Personally, I support the above CPM-compatible line of action.

>>  

>> Anyone can also propose some other CPM-Compatible action

>>  

>> Sunday.

>>  

>>  

>> On 2/18/21 1:04 PM, Sylvain Baya wrote:

>> {start a new thread from [1]}

>>  

>> Dear PDWG,

>> 

>> Hope you are safe and well!

>>  

>> <tl;dr>

>> This PDWG has violated its own PDP by reaching a consensus non PDP-compliant. In fact, the actualités CPM (version 1.6) contains no provision which could allow the PDWG to varying the process without at least one PDWG's Chair in place.

>> <tl;dr>

>>  

>> ...i first want to thank Jordi, for have right•ful•ly 

>> decided to coordinate PDWG actions during 

>> this post-recall PDWG's Chairs transition period. 

>> He did well (because the PDP [2] implicitely 

>> allows it, by leaving the howto question {see CPM 

>> section 3.3 [3]} to the implementors), but, IMHO, Jordi 

>> also failed to stick to only what was allowed 

>> by the PDP [3]. This is were what Fernando 

>> have tried to explain below is really relevant...i 

>> can also refer to more than two emails where 

>> Sunday is trying to enlightening that lack of PDP compliance. 

>>  

>> Some observations or facts to consider:

>>  

>> ~°~

>> •1| First, the final action made [4] on tuesday by Jordi, 

>> on behalf of the PDWG is a good proof that if 

>> appropriately conducted, the consensus-driven 

>> mecanism can work very well in this AfriNIC's 

>> PDWG.

>> •2| The PDP is *sufficiently* clear about the emergency 

>> procedure to use when it comes to replacing 

>> the PDWG's Chair(s) before the end of mandate(s).

>> •3| The PDP is also clear (see CPM section 3.6 [5]) 

>> about who from the PDWG can varying the process 

>> (PDP) and in which kind of circonstances.

>> •4| This post-recall PDWG's Chairs time makes 

>> an interesting precedent to study and without 

>> at least one of its Chairs, the PDWG is leaved 

>> with no mean to varying the process by itself...

>> •5| ...within the CPM (version 1.6) [6] even a 

>> consensus reached by the PDWG during this 

>> emergency time *MUST* be bond to the few 

>> tasks allowed by the PDP (select the new PDWG's 

>> Chairs; then continue to follow the PDP)...we 

>> failed on it; then we are in violation to the actual PDP.

>> •6| Yes! by the PDP, this PDWG is allowed to do 

>> only very few things without its Chairs. Doing 

>> more than those things is a clear violation 

>> of the PDP.

>> •7| AfriNIC's BoD has its prerogatives and we are 

>> sure it shall act accordingly if we, PDWG, fail 

>> to enforce our PDP. Therefore there is no need 

>> to violate our own PDP to do something which 

>> will be surely do soon by the BoD. That's doing 

>> something of non incidence...

>> •8| With the new PDWG's Chairs in action, of course, 

>> the fact that the PDWG can not actually varying 

>> the process by itself (raise a problem) could 

>> be consider and therefore handled by proposing 

>> a DPP (Draft Policy Proposal) to change at least 

>> it for example...

>> •9| Jordi has proved a good ability to conduct 

>> the PDWG, he is therefore a proven-good candidate 

>> as a replacement PDWG's Chair, for us, IMHO.

>> 10| Let's back to the PDP to do the only task 

>> we PDWG are allowed to do without our Chairs. 

>> Sunday, please can you handle the process 

>> to help the PDWG to enforce its PDP? 

>> ~°~

>>  

>> ...i want to call the PDWG once more [7], to firmly 

>> defend its PDP; because that is the most important 

>> thing to do, IMHO, during these difficult times.

>>  

>> If you see things differently, i look forward 

>> to reading you too! ;-)

>>  

>> Thanks & Blessed thursday!

>> __

>> [1]: <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/thread.html#12428 <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/thread.html#12428>>

>> [2]: <https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#PDP <https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#PDP>>

>> [3]: <https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#PDWG <https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#PDWG>>

>> [4]: <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/012425.html <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/012425.html>>

>> [5]: <https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#Varying-Process <https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#Varying-Process>>

>> [6]: <https://afrinic.net/cpm-1-6 <https://afrinic.net/cpm-1-6>>

>> [7]: <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/012358.html <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/012358.html>>

>>  

>> Shalom,

>> --sb.

>> 

>> Le mer. 17 févr. 2021 02:46, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a écrit :

>> Hello Gregoire

>> 

>> Well, the PDP makes it clear that is up to the WG to select the Co-Chairs, no one else (point 3.3). It doesn't have a fallback mechanism or even a point which allows the WG defer that decision to the Board.

>> This is different from when something is not mentioned at all and is considered not covered by current rules.

>> 

>> So anything different from what is in the PDP right now is a change in the PDP and a change in the PDP can only be done via the due process with rough consensus when we have new Co-Chairs in place. Even if the WG would decide unanimously right now to defer that decision it is something that cannot be done at the present because the current PDP as written forbids it having it clear the only way Co-Chairs can be chosen. 

>> 

>> I keep hoping the Board will organize the elections soon and we will be able to progress in this matter with the natural way which is the WG choosing.

>> Hope also in the next change we have to adjust the PDP we can include the possibility for the Board to be able to select temporary/interim Co-Chairs during unforeseen situation and it is in other RIRs.

>> 

>> Regards

>> Fernando

>> 

>> [...]

>>  

>> 

>> 

>> 

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