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[rpd] PDWG situation without co-chairs
Fernando Frediani
fhfrediani at gmail.com
Fri Feb 12 23:26:58 UTC 2021
Correct Owen, I understood the discussion was about that.
Sure, there is no apparent problem with people involved in a policy
discussion to run. If that person gets elected and is an author of a
proposal then of course if expected he will not take a decision about
the consensus for this own proposal.
Regards
Fernando
On 12/02/2021 19:49, Owen DeLong wrote:
>
>
>> On Feb 12, 2021, at 2:38 PM, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com
>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On 12/02/2021 19:25, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> We have also the problem, with your list, that some of them may be
>>>> in Committees (example AC), or involved in policy proposals under
>>>> discussion and if we want them to be really neutral, it should be
>>>> people that **hasn’t participated in those proposals** discussions.
>>>> Someone could think “let’s get opt to withdraw from those policy
>>>> proposals …. Come on!, they have already worked in them, and as
>>>> humans, it is not 100% safe to believe that they will be objective”
>>>> (even if some of the names can be good for my own proposal case,
>>>> because they supported them one way or another – I’m trying to be
>>>> honest and transparent here).
>>>
>>> For co-chairs, you want people that have been active and experienced
>>> in the policy arena. Looking for them to meet that criteria and yet
>>> never have expressed an opinion on a policy under current (or
>>> future) discussion is an unrealistic expectation. Really, we should
>>> not disqualify people simply because their name is associated with a
>>> policy, but rather we should expect that they will disclose any COI
>>> and that we trust them to act on behalf of the community and not
>>> merely their own interest.
>> Sorry but for me this is so naive.
>> People are human and they have their own opinions which are often
>> difficult to separate when they need to act on behalf of the
>> community. Even if they strongly believe they know how to separate
>> things most of the time they will fool themselves to feel more
>> comfortable they are doing it fine. It's human nature.
>>
>> I believe people need to chose their place: if they made themselves
>> available and were elected to act on behalf of the community they
>> must not put their personal opinions while their tenure is on and
>> look the most neutral possible. Otherwise there will always be doubts
>> and distrust from people watching it. If the person is not prepared
>> for that it is simple: just don't put himself/herself forward.
>>
> We are talking about different things here, Fernando…
>
> I was talking about disqualifying someone from running because they
> are currently actively involved in a policy discussion or proposal.
>
> You are talking about how someone should behave while in office.
>
> Owen
>
>> Fernando
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OWen
>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Jordi
>>>>
>>>> @jordipalet
>>>>
>>>> El 9/2/21 12:51, "Dewole Ajao" <dewole at forum.org.ng
>>>> <mailto:dewole at forum.org.ng>> escribió:
>>>>
>>>> Errrm, thanks for the vote of confidence, Jordi but I don't think I
>>>> have enough bandwidth at this time. Maybe a larger steering group
>>>> with more past co-chairs so that the workload isn't so much on any
>>>> one person? Yes, we absolutely should salute the co-chairs even
>>>> when there are errors in judgement. It's not an easy role.
>>>>
>>>> Removing former CEOs and current board members, the ex co-chair
>>>> pool (according
>>>> tohttps://afrinic.net/policy/development-working-group
>>>> <https://afrinic.net/policy/development-working-group>) looks like
>>>> this:
>>>> Vincent Ngundi
>>>> Hytham El Nakhal
>>>> Paulos Nyirenda
>>>> Tim McGinnis
>>>> Emile Milandou
>>>> Adam Nelson
>>>> Barry Macharia
>>>> Sami Salih
>>>>
>>>> Alain Aina seems to be a reasonable addition given that he has
>>>> contributed and continues to contribute actively to policy
>>>> development. We could also call for volunteers.
>>>>
>>>> This is an interesting situation indeed because at the end of all
>>>> this "speculation", someone has to decide on what next (and
>>>> regardless of whom it is, someone is going to disagree regarding
>>>> their standing... Example "board must not interfere with PDP",
>>>> "legal counsel is not legal counsel to the PDWG", etc). Time for us
>>>> all to be grown up, it would appear.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Dewole.
>>>>
>>>> On 2/9/2021 12:05 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
>>>>> This is why I suggested:
>>>>> > 4) Instead of looking for a temporary replacement, asking the board to organize elections
>>>>> in a maximum of 4-6 weeks, using the same procedure that was
>>>>> prepared for the last time and using the same electoral census.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I still believe that it will be good a transition period with
>>>>> previous chairs that have **real and proven experience**.
>>>>> For example, Dewole and Alan, would you accept to be nominated for
>>>>> that transition period (6-12 months I’m guessing)?
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>
>>>>> @jordipalet
>>>>>
>>>>> El 9/2/21 10:54, "Dewole Ajao via RPD" <rpd at afrinic.net
>>>>> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>> The proposed election process may have been workable if we did not
>>>>> already have contention over an unusual/unexplained surge in
>>>>> mailing list registrations a couple of moons ago. Setting a cut
>>>>> off date before that surge then cuts off some real humans that
>>>>> joined the mailing list after the surge. What to do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dewole.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/9/2021 10:13 AM, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>>>>> The co-chair model is by far the more common model among all the
>>>>>> RIRs.
>>>>>> However, there is one exception and I will say that in its
>>>>>> region, it has served the community rather well throughout the
>>>>>> history of that RIR.
>>>>>> It’s also the region where I have the greatest familiarity, now
>>>>>> being in my 14th year of service in that body.
>>>>>> In our region, we have 15 members and they come from diverse
>>>>>> segments of the community (cloud providers, large ISPs, small
>>>>>> ISPs, individuals, and more).
>>>>>> Being that I have been involved for so long in that process at
>>>>>> such a deep level, my view may be somewhat biased, but if the
>>>>>> PDWG wishes to pursue a transition towards an Advisory Council
>>>>>> structure instead of just 2 co-chairs, I’m happy to contribute my
>>>>>> knowledge and experience to that process.
>>>>>> However, this should not be the immediate fix to the current
>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>> The current situation should be resolved in the most efficient
>>>>>> possible way to achieve a fair and open election from the
>>>>>> existing participants in the community.
>>>>>> Lacking co-chairs to lead the process, I think it should probably
>>>>>> fall to the election committee to manage the election process. I
>>>>>> propose that:
>>>>>> 1.EC set a date (in the past) at which time you must have been a
>>>>>> member of the RPD
>>>>>> list in order to vote. This should prevent any room stacking and
>>>>>> allay any fears of room-stacking.
>>>>>> 2.EC sets a date (~10-14 days out) when nominations open. Anyone
>>>>>> eligible person wishing to serve may
>>>>>> self-nominate or be nominated by another. EC should collect and
>>>>>> validate all such
>>>>>> nominations. All validated nominees should be placed on a slate.
>>>>>> Nominations should
>>>>>> run for 1 week from the opening date.
>>>>>> 3.Each candidate should be able to submit a video and written
>>>>>> statement to be posted on the
>>>>>> AfriNIC web site at the same time as the slate is announced.
>>>>>> 4.Two weeks after announcement of the slate, voting should
>>>>>> commence and run for 1 week.
>>>>>> Each member should make a ranked-choice vote of 1 or more
>>>>>> candidates to hold the office.
>>>>>> If you aren’t familiar with ranked-choice voting,
>>>>>> https://ballotpedia.org/Ranked-choice_voting_(RCV)
>>>>>> <https://ballotpedia.org/Ranked-choice_voting_(RCV)>
>>>>>> provides good detail.
>>>>>> Essentially, the votes are counted in consecutive rounds,
>>>>>> starting with everyone’s first choice.
>>>>>> The candidate receiving the lowest percentage vote in each round
>>>>>> is eliminated and their votes
>>>>>> are transferred to the next choice of each voter who had
>>>>>> contributed to their total votes.
>>>>>> In this case, since we are electing two co-chairs, once the first
>>>>>> candidate reaches a ≥50%
>>>>>> majority in the ranked-choices, they should be selected to serve
>>>>>> out the longer term and
>>>>>> the next-highest ranked candidate should be selected to serve out
>>>>>> the shorter term.
>>>>>> Even this process will take time, but I think we should have a
>>>>>> deliberate process and a proper election
>>>>>> for the fairness of all.
>>>>>> Owen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 9, 2021, at 00:16 , Dewole Ajao via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net
>>>>>>> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Actually there is no king in the PDP, fortunately or
>>>>>>> unfortunately. Hopefully though, the market will be coordinated
>>>>>>> as best possible using the untested rules we have to work with
>>>>>>> in this case.
>>>>>>> My take:
>>>>>>> PDP (section 3.5) says a co-chair may be recalled (with request
>>>>>>> and justification sent to the board of directors); Logically,
>>>>>>> the recall process ends in either recall of the co-chair or
>>>>>>> continuation of his/her term. That's all that the conflict
>>>>>>> resolution section states and as such we will have to go to
>>>>>>> another part of the PDP that makes mention of a truncated
>>>>>>> co-chair term.
>>>>>>> The applicable section (i.e. 3.3) says the Working Group may
>>>>>>> select a replacement to serve the remainder of the term. Given
>>>>>>> the current polarized state of this working group, perhaps
>>>>>>> Afrinic staff under the guidance of the CEO and some advisory
>>>>>>> from the Board (being the representatives of resource members)
>>>>>>> could convene an online meeting in which the working group
>>>>>>> properly analyzes the situation and chooses a path forward?
>>>>>>> Considering our current fear of room stacking ahead of either
>>>>>>> face to face and online polls, it would be interesting to see
>>>>>>> how we resolve this one. Is this the birth of a PDWG led by a
>>>>>>> small group rather than 2 individuals? A group given a mandate
>>>>>>> to somehow tidy up many of the flaws in the current PDP?
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Dewole who quickly runs off to get a flame retardant suit :-P
>>>>>>> On 2/9/2021 7:17 AM, Daniel Yakmut via RPD wrote:
>>>>>>>> I don't agree Fernando, a committee does not usually have that
>>>>>>>> 'absoluteness' you mentioned. I can also understand the remarks
>>>>>>>> 'Findings/Outcome of the Recall Committee' to mean that there
>>>>>>>> is a hanging process.
>>>>>>>> Please, the committee's outcome remains that the Co-Chairs
>>>>>>>> should be recalled. There must be a pronouncement from the
>>>>>>>> board that constituted the Recall committee. This is not a
>>>>>>>> market square so we cannot take the 'shout of a mad man in the
>>>>>>>> market to mean the proclamation of the king'. The king must
>>>>>>>> speak through the authorised channel, before the people can accept.
>>>>>>>> Therefore, we wait!
>>>>>>>> Simply
>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>> On 09/02/2021 3:18 am, Badru Ntege wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I believe this is the correct understanding of the outcome.
>>>>>>>>> We now need to move forward with the selection of new co-chairs.
>>>>>>>>> The community is committed to accept the outcome of the committee.
>>>>>>>>> Lets move on.
>>>>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>>>>>> *From:*Fernando Frediani<fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> *Date:*Tuesday, 9 February 2021 at 01:45
>>>>>>>>> *To:*"rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy"<rpd at afrinic.net>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [rpd] PDWG situation without co-chairs
>>>>>>>>> No Daniel, the output of the Recall Committee regarding the
>>>>>>>>> Co-Chairs is already final (read point 19 from their report)
>>>>>>>>> according to whats the CPM says about it, so it does not have
>>>>>>>>> to be approved by anyone, not even the Board itself.
>>>>>>>>> So currently we don't have any Co-Chairs.
>>>>>>>>> What the Committee has mentioned in the document is for the
>>>>>>>>> Board to lead the election of the new Co-Chairs and determine
>>>>>>>>> the transition during this interim.
>>>>>>>>> That's it.
>>>>>>>>> Fernando
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 8 Feb 2021, 19:29 Daniel Yakmut via RPD,
>>>>>>>>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Here we are indeed in a strange situation, which we created for
>>>>>>>>>> ourselves. A situation we were drumming for. I thought we all
>>>>>>>>>> had it
>>>>>>>>>> figured out and that is why we called for recall of the
>>>>>>>>>> Co-chairs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am baffled that Jordi is already making a suggestion on how
>>>>>>>>>> to proceed
>>>>>>>>>> to get new Co-Chairs. When the recommendations of the Recall
>>>>>>>>>> Committee
>>>>>>>>>> has not being assented to. Though, I don't know who is to
>>>>>>>>>> approve the
>>>>>>>>>> recommendations of the committee.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hence, the response of Jordi is not tenable here, since I
>>>>>>>>>> have not seen
>>>>>>>>>> any declaration that, we don't have co-chairs. I am aware
>>>>>>>>>> that the Alan
>>>>>>>>>> Barret led committee made recommendations, which requires
>>>>>>>>>> acceptance,
>>>>>>>>>> approval and implementation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am rather seeing a strange situation in the haste that is being
>>>>>>>>>> suggested on how to deal with the 'situation of no Co-chairs'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am currently studying the documents provided by the Recall
>>>>>>>>>> Committee,
>>>>>>>>>> to enable one make an appropriate comment. But, at this early
>>>>>>>>>> stages the
>>>>>>>>>> outcome of the committees report remains just recommendations.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Simply,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/02/2021 9:52 pm, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> > Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > We are in a very strange situation now.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > We have no co-chairs, we have no meetings (because the
>>>>>>>>>> Covid) so elections could take place.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > The Recall Committee suggested that the section 3.3 of the
>>>>>>>>>> CPM shall take effect (if the working group chair is unable
>>>>>>>>>> to serve his or her full term the WG may select a replacement
>>>>>>>>>> to serve the remainder of the term).
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > The Recall Committee report already suggested that the PDWG
>>>>>>>>>> should work on this and coordinate with the board.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Guys, this is our "problem" as a community. Remember that
>>>>>>>>>> the board is only helping the community here organizing the
>>>>>>>>>> elections.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Is not the board who choose the candidates and elects them
>>>>>>>>>> it is our tasks. Remember that without co-chairs, we can't
>>>>>>>>>> advance with our work. Who takes care of ensuring a
>>>>>>>>>> profitable discussion in the list for any policy proposal
>>>>>>>>>> (and we have many in the table), or even ensuring that there
>>>>>>>>>> is not any abuse or bad behavior during this period?
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I will like to propose a few ideas and I hope that others
>>>>>>>>>> also do the same. Remember that this is transition period:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > 1) Ask the board to choose among previous co-chairs that
>>>>>>>>>> already have proven experience (and hopefully they accept).
>>>>>>>>>> > 2) Nominate ourselves those previous co-chairs.
>>>>>>>>>> > 3) A combination of both 1 and 2 above (example, board
>>>>>>>>>> nominates one, the community another).
>>>>>>>>>> > 4) Instead of looking for a temporary replacement, asking
>>>>>>>>>> the board to organize elections in a maximum of 4-6 weeks,
>>>>>>>>>> using the same procedure that was prepared for the last time
>>>>>>>>>> and using the same electoral census.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > If we want to board to hear us and take a decision, we
>>>>>>>>>> should try to reach consensus *among us* without co-chairs. I
>>>>>>>>>> know it seems difficult, but I'm convinced that at difficult
>>>>>>>>>> times, this community will be able to work together.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Eddy, I will love to hear also what you have to say, or if
>>>>>>>>>> the board already has worked out something, etc.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Thanks in advance!
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>>>>>>> > Jordi
>>>>>>>>>> > @jordipalet
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > **********************************************
>>>>>>>>>> > IPv4 is over
>>>>>>>>>> > Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>>>>>>>>> >http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>>>>>>>>>> > The IPv6 Company
>>>>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> > RPD mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>>>>>>>>> >https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>>>>>>>>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> RPD mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Dewole.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RPD mailing list
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>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Dewole.
>>>>> _______________________________________________ RPD mailing
>>>>> listRPD at afrinic.net
>>>>> <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>>>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>>>
>>>>> **********************************************
>>>>> IPv4 is over
>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>>>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>>>
>>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>>>>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
>>>>> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
>>>>> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
>>>>> of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
>>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
>>>>> criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
>>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
>>>>> of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
>>>>> is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
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>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Dewole.
>>>>
>>>> **********************************************
>>>> IPv4 is over
>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>>
>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>>>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
>>>> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
>>>> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
>>>> of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
>>>> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
>>>> criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
>>>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
>>>> of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
>>>> is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
>>>> you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
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