[rpd] End of Last call

[Mark Elkins]

I totally agree with Jordi.

People should remember that AFRINIC is the youngest registry and our 
everything (Bylaws, rules, structures - etc) is based on the first three 
Registries - that is RIPE, ARIN and APNIC, literally taking the best of 
each of these registries. People should also take into account the work 
Jordi has done in all of these registries regarding policy proposals 
both present and past (including AFRINIC). I believe he has a level of 
experience second to none.

Enough.

On 2020/10/09 14:13, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:

>

> Let’s be logic and rational: I also mention the AFRINIC case as well!

>

>  1. FACT 1: We have a sentence that requires a stable version 1 week

>     before the meeting. Nothing in the remaining text changes that.

>     So, the PDP position is still based on that sentence.

>  2. FACT 2: Previous co-chairs allowed **in the meeting, during the

>     proposal presentation** editorial adjustments (rewording, grammar,

>     typos), **only** if those adjustments didn’t change the proposal

>     interpretation. I’ve been several times, we got proposals that had

>     changes much smaller than the actual ones, and they needed to wait

>     for a new version and a new meeting 6 months afterwards.

>  3. FACT 3: If **after** the proposal is presented, we allow changes

>     “to declare consensus”, is not that the same as when we have a new

>     version after a meeting and the proposal need to wait for a new

>     meeting?

>  4. FACT 4: If we allow 3 above, then **all the proposals** should

>     have the same chances of allowing adjustments, otherwise we are

>     having a different treatment among different proposals and this is

>     against the full purpose of the PDP.

>  5. FACT 5: I’m convinced that the chairs acted in good faith, but

>     that doesn’t excuse errors in the interpretation of the PDP,

>     including the lack of a formal stable version available during all

>     the last call.

>  6. FACT 6: Anyone in disagreement of the yesterday chairs decision

>     has 2 weeks to appeal the decision. There is no discussion on

>     that. The 2 weeks timing re-starts after **every** chairs

>     decision. The appeal could have been submitted in September, but

>     it can be submitted also now, because the last-call discussion

>     proved that there is no continued consensus (which is the meaning

>     of the last-call).

>  7. FACT 7: The board can **only** ratify a proposal if the PDP has

>     been followed. If the board has any doubts on any nit on the

>     process, they can return the proposal to the PDWG for continuing

>     the discussion.

>  8. FACT 8: Instead of making a mistake and having **all this

>     discussion**, in case of doubt, we should follow the

>     interpretation done during many years, because it is the actual

>     practice, and ask the board to call for a new meeting in 2-3

>     months. I’m convinced that it can be much more efficient and not

>     create troubles.

>

> I think the chairs should take a decision if they still believe that 

> they did all right (remembering that a stable version was not 

> available during all the last call), or if it better to extend or 

> cancel the last call and ask the board for a focused new meeting just 

> to resolve this proposal (it can be for others as well, I will not 

> object to that, or even one each month from now on). Otherwise, anyone 

> from the community can go for an appeal and/or the board should make 

> sure if the process has been followed.

>

> I’m not going to reply anymore to this, it is starting to be useless 

> noise and not helping anyone.

>

> Regards,

>

> Jordi

>

> @jordipalet

>

> El 9/10/20 13:39, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <kay.k.prof at gmail.com 

> <mailto:kay.k.prof at gmail.com>> escribió:

>

> Dear community,

>

> It has been really disconcerting reading the last night's discussion. 

> The amount of personal attacks and passive aggressive statements is 

> making the discussion completely futile. The road of pointing fingers 

> leads nowhere. So let us please stop this and focus on the facts.

>

> And the facts are that there seems to be a single section of the CPM 

> that is causing most of the controversy. Namely is it the section 

> 3.4.3 on the Last Call. From what I can see one camp is arguing that 

> no changes can be made during the last call. While the other camp is 

> arguing that it is not forbidden.

>

> This is the problem with language - it always leaves room for 

> interpretation. Therefore, different people reading this section would 

> interpret it differently.

>

> But the fact is that NO violations took place. Yes, it is true that 

> the section does not explicitly talk about making changes during the 

> last call. However, it does not prohibit us from doing so.

>

>  As for Jordi's argument that this is not how it's interpreted in the 

> other RIRs - it is irrelevant. The only thing that matters right now 

> is how we can best interpret the CPM for the benefit of the AFRINIC 

> community.

>

> Some of you with different understanding of the CPM may disagree. And 

> it's okay. It seems like the way things are now, achieving any form of 

> agreement is impossible. The only thing that is the possible is to 

> follow the CPM in the way that benefits the community. And it has been 

> clearly stated many times that having a resource transfer policy as 

> soon as possible IS for the benefit of the community. It is also in 

> the benefit of the community that such policy shall be fully 

> compatible with other RIRs. Therefore, it is for the benefit of the 

> community and the region that the necessary changes are made during 

> the last call.

>

> And again for those in the back, the CPM does NOT prohibit changes 

> during the last call. Therefore, technically speaking no violations 

> have occurred.

>

> Finally, I would like to point out that the CPM is there to SERVE the 

> best interests community. It really pains me to see how many of you 

> put the wording of the rules above the interests of the people these 

> rules are  meant to represent.

>

> The fact is that many will suffer if this policy is not passed in a 

> timely manner. And i firmly believe that it is our duty to prevent 

> this from happening in any way we can.

>

> Best,

>

> Ekaterina

>

> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020, 11:07 lucilla fornaro 

> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com 

> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:

>

>     Dear Mirriam,

>

>     Is this a competition on who joined the community first?

>

>     I keep reading insults and arguments that NOTHING have to do with

>     this policy and the end of the last call. In an open and inclusive

>     community like Afrinic it is normal to have newbies. Most of the

>     people here have professional experience in some related fields,

>     and their contribution should be welcomed and appreciated, that's

>     how a community grows.

>

>     Regarding the more serious matter, Co-chairs followed the

>     procedure performing their administrative function within the

>     scope of the CPM, and those who disagree with it did not offer a

>     solution to get the community out of this standoff.

>

>     In my opinion, when situations like this happen, the only way is

>     to follow the procedure and direction of co-chairs.

>

>     regards,

>

>     Lucilla

>

>     Il giorno ven 9 ott 2020 alle ore 06:03 Mirriam via RPD

>     <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> ha scritto:

>

>         Hi Pascal,

>

>         Long time since Kampala last year.

>

>         Just to add that we have always had newbies who join the rpd

>         list and become part of the pdwg , learn and contribute  to

>         discussions and I was one of them since back in 2015.

>

>         We have also had newbies like Hilario who appears, contributes

>         like the world is ending and then disappear from the face of rpd.

>

>         We have also had newbies who behave like paid up mercenaries.

>         But we welcome newbies of course and some of us are learning

>         and contributing one day at a time.

>

>         I think what others are saying is that, newbies must also take

>         time and learn rather than jumping to conclusion.

>

>         I am a woman and I have never been intimidated by anyone here

>         or even during my first ever AIS meeting in Kampala, I was

>         happy to meet people, learn and socialize with all and believe

>         me I learned a lot from seniors that today I am able to

>         contribute my 2 cents once in a while.

>

>         Best regards,

>         Mirriam

>

>         On Thursday, October 8, 2020, 11:17:37 PM GMT+3, Paschal

>         Ochang <pascosoft at gmail.com <mailto:pascosoft at gmail.com>> wrote:

>

>         I don't think it will be right to make some derogatory remarks

>         with respect to participant's timeline of entry into the

>         discussions. Rather, we should look at the content of

>         discussions and contributions which in this case is very

>         positive. We as a community encourage active participation to

>         bring the best out of Policy development outcomes. A few years

>         ago this platform wasn't that active but the amount of recent

>         comments and participation shows that there is a move in the

>         positive direction.

>

>         The so called newbies have been giving intelligent

>         contributions therefore telling them to go and read committees

>         archives does not necessarily dictate that they are not well

>         schooled or knowledgeable to engage in the PDP process.

>

>         Thursday, October 8, 2020, Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com

>         <mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:

>

>             +1. Let not waste  our valuable time.  No need to also try

>             to understand why these people are so afraid of appeal.

>              These newbies should read carefully the PDP and consult

>             the appeal committee's archives to educate themselves

>             https://afrinic.net/policy/ appeal-committee/appeal-2018-

>             01-02#details

>             <https://afrinic.net/policy/appeal-committee/appeal-2018-01-02#details>

>

>             Thanks

>

>             --

>

>             Arnaud

>

>             Le jeu. 8 oct. 2020 à 14:04, Fernando Frediani

>             <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a écrit :

>

>                 Gaby please read the PDP correctly and do not confuse

>                 people.

>

>                 The section 3.5.1 of the CPM says "disagrees with the

>                 actions taken by the Chair(s)" not just with

>                 declarations made during the PPM. The Chairs could

>                 have changed their decision meanwhile but

>                 unfortunately they haven't done. They have just

>                 decided to keep it and it is "a decision" which by the

>                 CPM bound to appeal.

>

>                 Fernando

>

>                 On 08/10/2020 10:49, Gaby Giner wrote:

>

>                     Dear community,

>

>                     I agree with Lucilla but only wish to add 1 point.

>

>                     I think everyone has overlooked one huge matter.

>

>                     It is true that by section 3.5(1) of the CPM “A

>                     person who disagrees with the actions taken by the

>                     Chair(s) shall discuss the matter with the PDWG

>                     Chair(s) or with the PDWG”.

>

>                     However, I wish to remind everyone that by section

>                     3.5(2) of the CPM, “The appeal must be submitted

>                     within two weeks of the public knowledge of the

>                     decision”.

>

>                     Applying this into the current facts, the Chair

>                     has publicly announced its decision on 17th

>                     September 2020 through the online PPM, whereas,

>                     the disagreement/appeal is only made on 2nd

>                     October 2020 onward, which is factually beyond the

>                     14 days period to appeal.

>

>                     Therefore, the disagreements/appeal made in this

>                     email thread/mailing list must be deemed invalid

>                     and be disregarded.

>

>                     Thanks,

>

>                     Gaby

>

>                     On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 9:05 PM lucilla fornaro,

>                     <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail. com

>                     <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:

>

>                         Dear Sami, dear all,

>

>                         Most of the arguments supporting the policy

>                         were not mere "opinions".

>

>                         A quick reminder, the policy reached a rough

>                         consensus during the PPM and went to the last

>                         call for some editorial changes. The authors,

>                         Taiwo and Anthony, proved to be remarkably

>                         active to manage minor issues and solicitudes

>                         from the community. The resource transfer

>                         policy aims to build a stable and efficient

>                         resources management system for the Afrinic

>                         service region.

>

>                         The overall discussion has been full of

>                         controversies undermining the work of the

>                         co-chairs, an unfair behavior in my opinion.

>                         Also, the arguments against the policy have

>                         been strongly taken apart.

>

>                         We have been debating this policy for weeks,

>                         it is now time to move it to the board for

>                         ratification.

>

>                         regards,

>

>                         Lucilla

>

>                         Il giorno gio 8 ott 2020 alle ore 21:09 Sami

>                         Ait Ali Oulahcen via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net

>                         <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> ha scritto:

>

>                             Hi,

>

>                             I can't see how the "Resource Transfer

>                             Policy" could have reached consensus.

>                             I think the co-chairs' prerogative is to

>                             declare consensus on policies,

>                             not general opinions. And "we need an

>                             inter-RIR transfer policy" is a

>                             general opinion, not a policy.

>                             The policy in question still had

>                             objections (non-editorial) before last

>                             call. And it received significant changes

>                             during the last call period

>                             (it is not what last call is meant for).

>

>                             Not that I have any interest in the policy

>                             itself being ratified or not.

>                             It shouldn't be done this way.

>

>                             Just my 2c.

>

>                             Regards,

>                             Sami

>

>                             On 10/8/20 12:30 AM, Moses Serugo wrote:

>                             > Hello PDWG members,

>                             >

>                             > Following the last online PPM held on

>                             16^th -17^th September 2020. Last

>                             > call was announced on 21^st September

>                             2020 for the following policy

>                             > proposals.

>                             >

>                             >   * Board Prerogatives on the PDP

>                             >   * Resource Transfer Policy

>                             >

>                             > This is to further announce that the

>                              last call period for the above

>                             > proposals has ended, based on feedback

>                             received from the community and

>                             > the editorial changes made by authors to

>                             address community concerns, the

>                             > consensus decision from AFRINIC32 is

>                             still maintained.

>                             >

>                             > Co-Chairs will now send a report to the

>                             Board recommending ratification

>                             > of the two above proposals in line with

>                             CPM 3.0.

>                             >

>                             > Regards,

>                             >

>                             > Co-Chairs

>                             >

>                             >

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>

>         -- 

>         Kind regards,

>

>         Paschal.

>

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