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[rpd] Abuse Contact Policy

JORDI PALET MARTINEZ jordi.palet at consulintel.es
Mon Sep 21 09:06:37 UTC 2020


Hi Mark,



Your point regarding the bulk way, I think is already there in 8.2:

“Considering the hierarchical nature of IP address objects, child objects of those directly distributed by AFRINIC may be covered by parent objects or they may have their own "abuse-c" attribute.”



Otherwise, this could be something that can be requested (without need of stating it in the policy) at the implementation level, as I guess this is already done for other whois data, or I’m getting your point wrong?



Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet



El 19/9/20 13:27, "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> escribió:



The only people complaining about this policy should be the Resource Members of AFRINIC. To be clear, I am a Resource Member (of AFRINIC) and I agree with the policy. There is currently a voluntary option to add an abuse contact. I personally believe it should be renamed to "abuse-c" (so it looks more obvious and similar to the other contacts for an ASN or IP allocation/assignment) and should be mandatory. I'd also like a bulk way to have this added if possible - because I'm lazy and like many others, have multiple allocations/assignments. Then - if one of my allocations/assignments causes a problem to someone in the world - they can easily find my abuse support address to complain to. This really should be a no-brainer.

On 2020/09/19 10:59, Frank Habicht wrote:
Hi,

On 19/09/2020 08:40, lucilla fornaro wrote:
I have to disagree!

The point is: the proposal does not define or give an indicator of what
an abuse is.
It does NOT need to do that.

The policy is NOT about abuses.
It is about *abuse contacts*.
It is about publishing *abuse contacts* in case someone, like a network
operator (who knows what an abuse is), wants to send an abuse complaint.

Network operators know what an abuse is - if they care.
Others, and this policy, don't need to know what an abuse is.

People, including participants on this list, may even disagree about
what constitutes abuse. They might also conclude, and agree that "what
is an abuse" depends on country, opinion, operator policy, time-of-day,
etc.
These are all things irrelevant to this policy.

This was stated multiple times.
Some people seem to ignore this.
Some people seem to reiterate that a definition of abuse is needed.
I believe that others and myself have explained why that is not the case.

Do the chairs agree that issues are re-iterated that have been shown to
be irrelevant to the discussion of this policy?


It is not functional to propose a policy if the elements
present in it are not clear.
I humbly request to differentiate between "abuse" (which this policy is
not directly about), and "abuse contacts" - which this policy aims to
ensure are to be published.

We have discussed sufficiently that the definition of "abuse" can vary.
Depending on /many/ things.
I believe we have agreed that the definition can vary.
Maybe the chairs can confirm that. I think this might be helpful.

The policy is about "abuse contacts".
I believe the 'elements present in it' are in fact clear.


The main focus of the proposal is the
abuse,
no. "abuse contacts".

you said that the proposal makes sure that there is a valid
response incase of an abuse report. BUT if people do not know what
Afrinic means for abuse,
AfriNIC doesn't mean anything about "abuse".
AfriNIC, I believe, doesn't have a policy about what "abuse" is.
It is *NOT* for AfriNIC to decide that.
Network operators are capable of doing that.
Network operators are willing to do that.
If others - including participants on this list - are not able to define
what abuse is, that fact is irrelevant [1].
Because this policy is for the benefits of network operators.
And this policy affects AfriNIC Resource Members.

Participants on this mailing list are not required to be network
operators, nor are they required to be AfriNIC Resource Members.
Everybody is welcome.
But when it comes to discussing about the subject of this policy (which
is *abuse contacts*), it seems to be beneficial to understand some
distinctions.

the reports will be too many, often
unreasonable, with a consequent waste of time and resources.
so-called "Waste of resources" :
a) not on the part of AfriNIC
b) not on the part of network operators ignoring abuse complaints
c) possibly on the part of network operators filing abuse complaints
  [who do understand that there is an unfortunately high chance of
    getting ignored]
d) not on the part of recipients of abuse complaints who appreciate the
   information in the complaints and are willing to
     i) communicate with the complaintant
    ii) clean up their network or customers, thus
   iii) improving their own security and posture (housekeeping)

So, for those who want to be able to get abuse complaints, and for those
who want to "waste their time" with writing these abuse complaints, can
we pass this policy so that AfriNIC can enforce resource holders to
publish the abuse contacts....
..... without AfriNIC knowing or defining what constitutes abuse.


In an ideal
world, the proposal would be efficient the way it is. But we do not live
in an ideal world.
Is it an improvement? progress in the right direction?

If we want it to be effective in the long run, it is
necessary to make adjustments.
disagree.
Also: you "forgot" to suggest the improvements here.
I wonder why.

I request the chairs to agree that supporters of the policy have shown
that a definition of "abuse" is not needed and continued calls for that
are not relevant.


Regards,
Frank

[1]
sorry, for the strong language of "irrelevant", but I think I better
make the thoughts very clear


Lucilla
Il giorno ven 18 set 2020 alle ore 21:43 Fernando Frediani
<fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:

    On 18/09/2020 05:22, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
    <clip>____

    __ __

    Again, this is not about defining what is abuse, this is among the
    parties. It is about making sure that there is a valid responsible
    contact in case of anyone needs to report what he considers an
    abuse. AFRINIC will not punish anyone that believes that his
    customer is not doing an abuse because in his country is not an abuse.

    Exactly !

    Often people are misunderstanding the intention of the proposals and
    opposing them for reasons that are not written on them, which end up
    causing more confusion to other people.

    I support this proposal
    Fernando

    ____

    __ __

    Regards,____

    Jordi____

    @jordipalet____

    __ __

    __ __

    __ __

    El 18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
    <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____

    __ __

    Hello Jordi,____

    __ __

    RFC2142 only defines a tiny portion of the network abuse. In real
    world operation, abuse consists of a much boarder range :
    DMCA(copy rights) claims, unsolicited emails , phishing websites
    , trade mark disputes etc. ____

    __ __

    All those are legal issues that vary vastly across different
    juridictions in which no one but each of the juridiction’s judges
    can decide if it is an abuse or an illegal activity. Claiming that
    RFC2142 defines not even 1% of real world abuse is laughable.____

    __ __

    Regards,____

    __ __

    Lamiaa____

    __ __

    Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
    <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____

        Hi Lamiaa,____

        ____

        I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
        enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____

        ____

        Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
        because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
        contacts in place.____

        ____

        If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
        accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
        unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
        around.____

        ____

        Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
        is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
        it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
        is different and need a definition?____

        ____

        How you define it in the networks that you operate?____

        ____

        Regards,____

        Jordi____

        @jordipalet____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
        <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____

        ____

        ____

        Hello,____

        ____

        I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
        like to add to it that :____

        Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____

        Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
        abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
        operation in a different jurisdiction.____

        Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
        Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
        entirely up to the member to define what they think is
        acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
        it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
        “abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
        identify what is considered an abuse.____

        Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
        operation.____

        ____

        Regards,____

        ____

        Lamiaa____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
        <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____

            Hi Lucilla,____

            ____

            Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
            networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
            networks you know that **anything** which is a
            non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____

            ____

            If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
            networks, etc., all those are abuse.____

            ____

            What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
            everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
            is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
            are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
            do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
            other regions of the world).____

            ____

            Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
            more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
            means that you have more chances to resolve it in
            goodfaith.____

            ____

            One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
            accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
            contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____

            ____

            Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
            kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
            implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
            now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
            meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
            any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
            well in the other regions).____

            ____

            You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
            Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
            spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____

            ____

            Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
            abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
            penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
            contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____

            ____

            Regards,____

            Jordi____

            @jordipalet____

            ____

            ____

            ____

            El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
            <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
            <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:____

            ____

            Dear all,____

            ____

            I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____

            First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
            description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
            to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
            discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
            Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
            different ways.____

            ____

            Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
            and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
            Afrinic’s purpose.____

            ____

            I, therefore, oppose this policy.____

            ____

            ____

            Thank you,____

            ____

            Lucilla ____

            _______________________________________________ RPD
            mailing list RPD at afrinic.net
            <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
            <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____


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        Are you ready for the new Internet ?

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        This electronic message contains information which may be
        privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
        for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
        further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
        distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
        if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
        and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
        intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
        distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
        if partially, including attached files, is strictly
        prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
        reply to the original sender to inform about this
        communication and delete it.


        ____


        _______________________________________________

        RPD mailing list

        RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>

        https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
        <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____

    __ __

    __ __

    Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
    <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____

        Hi Lamiaa,____

        ____

        I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
        enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____

        ____

        Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
        because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
        contacts in place.____

        ____

        If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
        accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
        unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
        around.____

        ____

        Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
        is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
        it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
        is different and need a definition?____

        ____

        How you define it in the networks that you operate?____

        ____

        Regards,____

        Jordi____

        @jordipalet____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
        <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____

        ____

        ____

        Hello,____

        ____

        I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
        like to add to it that :____

        Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____

        Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
        abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
        operation in a different jurisdiction.____

        Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
        Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
        entirely up to the member to define what they think is
        acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
        it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
        “abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
        identify what is considered an abuse.____

        Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
        operation.____

        ____

        Regards,____

        ____

        Lamiaa____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        ____

        Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
        <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____

            Hi Lucilla,____

            ____

            Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
            networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
            networks you know that **anything** which is a
            non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____

            ____

            If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
            networks, etc., all those are abuse.____

            ____

            What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
            everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
            is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
            are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
            do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
            other regions of the world).____

            ____

            Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
            more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
            means that you have more chances to resolve it in
            goodfaith.____

            ____

            One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
            accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
            contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____

            ____

            Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
            kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
            implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
            now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
            meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
            any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
            well in the other regions).____

            ____

            You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
            Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
            spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____

            ____

            Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
            abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
            penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
            contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____

            ____

            Regards,____

            Jordi____

            @jordipalet____

            ____

            ____

            ____

            El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
            <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
            <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:____

            ____

            Dear all,____

            ____

            I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____

            First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
            description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
            to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
            discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
            Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
            different ways.____

            ____

            Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
            and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
            Afrinic’s purpose.____

            ____

            I, therefore, oppose this policy.____

            ____

             ____

            Thank you,____

            ____

            Lucilla ____

            _______________________________________________ RPD
            mailing list RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
            https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
            <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd> ____


            **********************************************
            IPv4 is over
            Are you ready for the new Internet ?
            http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
            The IPv6 Company

            This electronic message contains information which may be
            privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
            be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
            and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
            distribution or use of the contents of this information,
            even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
            prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
            you are not the intended recipient be aware that any
            disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
            of this information, even if partially, including attached
            files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
            criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender
            to inform about this communication and delete it.____

            _______________________________________________
            RPD mailing list
            RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
            https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
            <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____


        **********************************************


        IPv4 is over


        Are you ready for the new Internet ?


        http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>


        The IPv6 Company





        This electronic message contains information which may be
        privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
        for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
        further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
        distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
        if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
        and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
        intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
        distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
        if partially, including attached files, is strictly
        prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
        reply to the original sender to inform about this
        communication and delete it.




        ____



        _______________________________________________

        RPD mailing list

        RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>

        https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
        <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____

    -- ____

    Lamiaa CHNAYTI____

    __ __


    **********************************************
    IPv4 is over
    Are you ready for the new Internet ?
    http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
    The IPv6 Company

    This electronic message contains information which may be
    privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
    the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
    non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
    of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
    attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
    criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
    that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
    of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
    is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
    you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
    communication and delete it.


    _______________________________________________
    RPD mailing list
    RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
    https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
    _______________________________________________
    RPD mailing list
    RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
    https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
    <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>


_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

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