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[rpd] Abuse Contact Policy
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
jordi.palet at consulintel.es
Mon Sep 21 09:06:37 UTC 2020
Hi Mark,
Your point regarding the bulk way, I think is already there in 8.2:
“Considering the hierarchical nature of IP address objects, child objects of those directly distributed by AFRINIC may be covered by parent objects or they may have their own "abuse-c" attribute.”
Otherwise, this could be something that can be requested (without need of stating it in the policy) at the implementation level, as I guess this is already done for other whois data, or I’m getting your point wrong?
Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
El 19/9/20 13:27, "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za> escribió:
The only people complaining about this policy should be the Resource Members of AFRINIC. To be clear, I am a Resource Member (of AFRINIC) and I agree with the policy. There is currently a voluntary option to add an abuse contact. I personally believe it should be renamed to "abuse-c" (so it looks more obvious and similar to the other contacts for an ASN or IP allocation/assignment) and should be mandatory. I'd also like a bulk way to have this added if possible - because I'm lazy and like many others, have multiple allocations/assignments. Then - if one of my allocations/assignments causes a problem to someone in the world - they can easily find my abuse support address to complain to. This really should be a no-brainer.
On 2020/09/19 10:59, Frank Habicht wrote:
Hi,
On 19/09/2020 08:40, lucilla fornaro wrote:
I have to disagree!
The point is: the proposal does not define or give an indicator of what
an abuse is.
It does NOT need to do that.
The policy is NOT about abuses.
It is about *abuse contacts*.
It is about publishing *abuse contacts* in case someone, like a network
operator (who knows what an abuse is), wants to send an abuse complaint.
Network operators know what an abuse is - if they care.
Others, and this policy, don't need to know what an abuse is.
People, including participants on this list, may even disagree about
what constitutes abuse. They might also conclude, and agree that "what
is an abuse" depends on country, opinion, operator policy, time-of-day,
etc.
These are all things irrelevant to this policy.
This was stated multiple times.
Some people seem to ignore this.
Some people seem to reiterate that a definition of abuse is needed.
I believe that others and myself have explained why that is not the case.
Do the chairs agree that issues are re-iterated that have been shown to
be irrelevant to the discussion of this policy?
It is not functional to propose a policy if the elements
present in it are not clear.
I humbly request to differentiate between "abuse" (which this policy is
not directly about), and "abuse contacts" - which this policy aims to
ensure are to be published.
We have discussed sufficiently that the definition of "abuse" can vary.
Depending on /many/ things.
I believe we have agreed that the definition can vary.
Maybe the chairs can confirm that. I think this might be helpful.
The policy is about "abuse contacts".
I believe the 'elements present in it' are in fact clear.
The main focus of the proposal is the
abuse,
no. "abuse contacts".
you said that the proposal makes sure that there is a valid
response incase of an abuse report. BUT if people do not know what
Afrinic means for abuse,
AfriNIC doesn't mean anything about "abuse".
AfriNIC, I believe, doesn't have a policy about what "abuse" is.
It is *NOT* for AfriNIC to decide that.
Network operators are capable of doing that.
Network operators are willing to do that.
If others - including participants on this list - are not able to define
what abuse is, that fact is irrelevant [1].
Because this policy is for the benefits of network operators.
And this policy affects AfriNIC Resource Members.
Participants on this mailing list are not required to be network
operators, nor are they required to be AfriNIC Resource Members.
Everybody is welcome.
But when it comes to discussing about the subject of this policy (which
is *abuse contacts*), it seems to be beneficial to understand some
distinctions.
the reports will be too many, often
unreasonable, with a consequent waste of time and resources.
so-called "Waste of resources" :
a) not on the part of AfriNIC
b) not on the part of network operators ignoring abuse complaints
c) possibly on the part of network operators filing abuse complaints
[who do understand that there is an unfortunately high chance of
getting ignored]
d) not on the part of recipients of abuse complaints who appreciate the
information in the complaints and are willing to
i) communicate with the complaintant
ii) clean up their network or customers, thus
iii) improving their own security and posture (housekeeping)
So, for those who want to be able to get abuse complaints, and for those
who want to "waste their time" with writing these abuse complaints, can
we pass this policy so that AfriNIC can enforce resource holders to
publish the abuse contacts....
..... without AfriNIC knowing or defining what constitutes abuse.
In an ideal
world, the proposal would be efficient the way it is. But we do not live
in an ideal world.
Is it an improvement? progress in the right direction?
If we want it to be effective in the long run, it is
necessary to make adjustments.
disagree.
Also: you "forgot" to suggest the improvements here.
I wonder why.
I request the chairs to agree that supporters of the policy have shown
that a definition of "abuse" is not needed and continued calls for that
are not relevant.
Regards,
Frank
[1]
sorry, for the strong language of "irrelevant", but I think I better
make the thoughts very clear
Lucilla
Il giorno ven 18 set 2020 alle ore 21:43 Fernando Frediani
<fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:
On 18/09/2020 05:22, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
<clip>____
__ __
Again, this is not about defining what is abuse, this is among the
parties. It is about making sure that there is a valid responsible
contact in case of anyone needs to report what he considers an
abuse. AFRINIC will not punish anyone that believes that his
customer is not doing an abuse because in his country is not an abuse.
Exactly !
Often people are misunderstanding the intention of the proposals and
opposing them for reasons that are not written on them, which end up
causing more confusion to other people.
I support this proposal
Fernando
____
__ __
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
__ __
__ __
__ __
El 18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
<mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____
__ __
Hello Jordi,____
__ __
RFC2142 only defines a tiny portion of the network abuse. In real
world operation, abuse consists of a much boarder range :
DMCA(copy rights) claims, unsolicited emails , phishing websites
, trade mark disputes etc. ____
__ __
All those are legal issues that vary vastly across different
juridictions in which no one but each of the juridiction’s judges
can decide if it is an abuse or an illegal activity. Claiming that
RFC2142 defines not even 1% of real world abuse is laughable.____
__ __
Regards,____
__ __
Lamiaa____
__ __
Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
Hi Lamiaa,____
____
I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____
____
Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
contacts in place.____
____
If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
around.____
____
Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
is different and need a definition?____
____
How you define it in the networks that you operate?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
<mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____
____
____
Hello,____
____
I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
like to add to it that :____
Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____
Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
operation in a different jurisdiction.____
Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
entirely up to the member to define what they think is
acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
“abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
identify what is considered an abuse.____
Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
operation.____
____
Regards,____
____
Lamiaa____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
Hi Lucilla,____
____
Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
networks you know that **anything** which is a
non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____
____
If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
networks, etc., all those are abuse.____
____
What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
other regions of the world).____
____
Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
means that you have more chances to resolve it in
goodfaith.____
____
One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____
____
Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
well in the other regions).____
____
You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____
____
Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
<lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
<mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:____
____
Dear all,____
____
I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____
First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
different ways.____
____
Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
Afrinic’s purpose.____
____
I, therefore, oppose this policy.____
____
____
Thank you,____
____
Lucilla ____
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Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
Hi Lamiaa,____
____
I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____
____
Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
contacts in place.____
____
If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
around.____
____
Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
is different and need a definition?____
____
How you define it in the networks that you operate?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
<mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____
____
____
Hello,____
____
I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
like to add to it that :____
Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____
Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
operation in a different jurisdiction.____
Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
entirely up to the member to define what they think is
acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
“abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
identify what is considered an abuse.____
Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
operation.____
____
Regards,____
____
Lamiaa____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
____
Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
<rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
Hi Lucilla,____
____
Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
networks you know that **anything** which is a
non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____
____
If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
networks, etc., all those are abuse.____
____
What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
other regions of the world).____
____
Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
means that you have more chances to resolve it in
goodfaith.____
____
One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____
____
Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
well in the other regions).____
____
You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____
____
Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____
____
Regards,____
Jordi____
@jordipalet____
____
____
____
El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
<lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
<mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:____
____
Dear all,____
____
I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____
First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
different ways.____
____
Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
Afrinic’s purpose.____
____
I, therefore, oppose this policy.____
____
____
Thank you,____
____
Lucilla ____
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prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
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disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially, including attached
files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
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-- ____
Lamiaa CHNAYTI____
__ __
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