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[rpd] Cooperation re PDP update proposal
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
jordi.palet at consulintel.es
Sun May 26 07:10:53 UTC 2019
Hi Dewole,
Then we agree here. As explained in one of my previous emails, I believe it makes sense to approach (when possible), small changes, or even split in several policy proposals, than a big change in a single proposal.
El 26/5/19 8:26, "Dewole Ajao" <dewole at forum.org.ng> escribió:
Actually, Jordi, my point was not about having a smaller number of proposals but about having a proposal cover an area that makes it easy enough for the community to decide if they like to support it or not.
The wider the scope, the more likely that there will be some areas that people don’t agree with. Those areas may be small but significant enough to make people hold back their support.
Dewole.
----- Mail d’origine -----
De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
À: Komi Elitcha <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>, Dewole Ajao <dewole at forum.org.ng>
Cc: Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com>, Honest Ornella GANKPA <honest1989 at gmail.com>, ALAIN AINA <Alain.Aina at wacren.net>, rpd <rpd at afrinic.net>
Envoyé: Sat, 25 May 2019 10:30:35 -0000 (GMT)
Objet: Re: [rpd] Cooperation re PDP update proposal
Hi Komi,
El 25/5/19 8:33, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> escribió:
Hi Dewole,
- This conversation is the exact situation where 2 working group members with good intention are expressing different approaches to the same problem. Thus, the need for a neutral party (moderator) to help them dissipate their disagreement and build a common ground acceptable to both; what we call here rough consensus.
Chair and moderator are two different things, and I don't think is good that the chairs take all the responsibility to "moderate" the community conversation. I think the maximum chairs should do is to warn the participants if there is some broken behavior in the list. I will even agree if chairs, as it is done in IETF, want also to participate in the community discussion (as individuals, not as chairs). However, even if they clearly state "chair hat off this is my opinion" this is biasing some folks in the community, so it is dangerous.
- Moderate does not mean censor, ban or punish. Moderate as prescribed by PDP-BIS is a way of helping the working group methodically make progress and so, encourage more participation and discourage disruptive behaviours, as they will no longer produce the expected effects.
It is up to the community participation to bring the discussion to a common point of understanding, if that's possible. Consensus is not always easy to achieve, or may be even impossible. We see this every other day in IETF. Sometimes, the same topic needs to be approached at different times, or by different people, or with totally different perspectives.
- In PDP, there are no products, no sellers or buyers. Once a problem is identified and accepted as work item by the Working group, the solution must be community-driven. That is why, PDP-BIS is moving from this authors against others mode to a more community approach. The "authors" is replaced by "initiators". All rights on proposals are granted to the Working group giving more powers to the community and the cochairs, etc.
Every policy proposal is a "product". Authors aren't really authors, I see them as "editors", as we do in IETF. They have a starting idea, but once published by means of the PDP, they *must* try to mix their own views and capture the community views, and try to agree in a middle point. There is no need to do any change in the PDP for that.
I don't agree with Dewole (if I understood him correctly) that is better to have a small number of policy proposals. We write policy proposal when we believe they are needed, when problems are discovered, and because reaching consensus is a slow process, and may fail, it means, you have at some point many policy proposals. The reason for that is that the PDP states they need to be presented in a meeting, so even if it looks as a "continuous" process, actually is not. This is the main difference with the RIPE PDP, and that's why I repeatedly said that this PDP (again so nobody gets confused, the RIPE one) is the best in my opinion, but ONLY if it is used for decision taking in the list, not in the meeting, not in both.
Is the overall community fault that, because we aren't participating actively in discussions, proposals get accumulated. If a problem is discovered, or an existing policy needs to be enhanced, it needs to be brought up to the PDP process ASAP, even if this means we have more parallel discussions. There are thousands of free tools and email clients that allow you to separate all the discussion threads and avoid getting confused if this is a problem for someone. Example, thunderbird (firefox email client). Laziness is not an excuse, neither is it "I don't have time". If you're willing to contribute, you will find the time.
HTH
Komi
Thank you!
> Le 24 mai 2019 à 05:44, Dewole Ajao <dewole at forum.org.ng> a écrit :
>
> Hi Komi,
>
> Beyond requesting clarification where needed, I have generally stayed out of proposal discussions to avoid situations where my comments are misconstrued as being for or against a proposal. That being said, I will make some comments because it may be helpful in this case for the community to see things from the viewpoint of a co-chair. I am also happy to recuse myself from any determination regarding any/all PDP improvement proposals if that is perceived to be the best way forward.
>
> 1. It is quite interesting that you state categorically that all we do as co-chairs is the bare minimum listed in the current PDP. Many of the things you mention as roles and responsibilities in the PDP-BIS proposal are already being done (even though we do them with expectations of maturity/cooperation within the group and without trying to micro-manage the process). If the PDP is updated to have specific phases, co-chairs must work with that.
>
> 2. As you may have observed, my personal opinion is that censoring the few participants in a discussion does not serve to encourage participation. Some members are prone to taunting others while being barely civil and unfortunately their targets take the bait and allow emotions drive them to respond with insults/slander/attacks. We also have cases where members branch out from the policy discussion to sentimental issues that should have no bearing on policy. As co-chairs, we observe these distractions from time to time but we choose not to amplify them. I would rather allow common sense prevail since a mature mind should be able to sidestep any distraction and stay on the topic of policy development. I don't think there is a perfect solution as this is totally dependent on the maturity of discussants but perhaps we at AFRINIC could borrow a leaf from https://www.arin.net/participate/community/mailing_lists/aup/ where a standing committee exists to assist with reviewing the course of action in the event of abuse.
>
> 3. Co-chairs currently monitor remote chat during the PPM in addition to the assigned staff member monitoring remote participation. When the traffic is light, it is easy for co-chairs to cover both in-room and remote participation with no problem but there be situations where there is a lot of chatter in the chat as well as in the room. I believe the PDP should allow room for the assigned staff to bring any missed points from remote participation to the attention of the co-chairs.
>
> 4. The list of responsibilities you posted below has done nothing to help me understand what you mean by "uncontrolled email flow" or "unmoderated flow of mails". What specific actions would you suggest that we take, please?
>
> 5. Despite your attempts to hard-code specific responsibilities in the PDP-BIS, some of them are still subject to interpretation and it is quite possible that having them there does not achieve the desired results. What we need to do is tell ourselves the truth: people just need to become more mature. We need to try to see things from others' point of view and understand that we are not always the ones that know best what is best for everyone. We should also try to forget the wrongs we think have been done to us in the past and try to move forward.
>
> My advice to authors of any policy proposals is this: Instead of saying "this is why I am right and you must support my policy proposal", you could try saying "section xyz of my proposal attempts to solve this problem by doing abc, what do you think?". As much as you seek to be understood, you should also seek to understand others' positions. People have short attention span and it is possible they do not fully understand what you are proposing; your manner of approach will determine if they take their scarce time to appreciate the issue or not. If on the other hand, their objections are out of ignorance, it will become obvious if you engage them in an accommodating manner.
>
> In the past twenty or so years, I have sold products or services in one form or the other and I have learnt that customers buy when the product/service being offered is easy to understand. I sell more when I take no more than two different products to them; when I take a larger array of products, their brains switch from buying mode and they usually end up not taking a decision. I think all policy proposers should think like salesmen trying to get their customers to make a buying decision. I understand that not everyone agrees with this approach but I just thought I should mention it.
>
> Regards,
> Dewole.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "abel ELITCHA" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>
> To: "dewole" <dewole at forum.org.ng>
> Cc: "Arnaud AMELINA" <amelnaud at gmail.com>, "Honest Ornella GANKPA" <honest1989 at gmail.com>, "ALAIN AINA" <Alain.Aina at wacren.net>, "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>, "jordi palet" <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 12:22:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [rpd] Cooperation re PDP update proposal
>
> Dear Dewole,
>
> The current PDP as we read it in CPM at section 3.3[1] says :
>
> ‘The Policy Development Working Group has two Chairs to perform its administrative functions.
>
> Cochairs role and responsibilities are listed as follow [2]:
>
> ######
> • Determining whether there is consensus during open policy discussions.
> • Publishing minutes of the proceedings of public policy meetings.
> • Initiation and termination of final review of proposals (Last Call).
> • Sending a report on the outcomes of policy discussions at public policy meetings to the Board of Directors.
> #####
>
> THAT IS WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING SO FAR.
>
> If PDP-BIS is adopted, cochairs role and responsibilities will be as follow:[3]
>
> ####
>
> 2.1.1 Before an AFRINIC Public Policy Meeting
>
> 2.1.1 Before an AFRINIC Public Policy Meeting
>
> • Introduce a policy proposal into the adoption phase
> • Announce policy proposals to the policy discussion mailing list
> • Discourages any behaviour that jeopardizes open participation to policy discussions, especially for newcomers.
> • Monitors and moderate discussions held on AFRINIC policy discussion mailing list ( rpd at afrinic.net)
> • Announces the call for presentation of policy proposals for Public Policy Meetings on the policy discussion mailing list,
> • Read submitted proposals
> • Remain subscribed to AFRINIC RPD and member-discuss lists during his term.
> • At the AFRINIC Public Policy Meeting, read initiators' slides to familiarize themselves with the details and ensure it matches proposal text. In case of any difference, submission of an updated version of the proposal on rpd list to notify the working group is required, even if these changes will not be considered.
> • Create agenda presentation slides for the meeting with the AFRINIC staff.
> • Guide the consensus gauging process; announces the current phase of a policy proposal.
> • Read AFRINIC Public Policy Meeting minutes and makes corrections as necessary
> • Present the policy discussion working group report to the AFRINIC Public Policy Meeting.
>
> 2.1.2 After a Public Policy Meeting
>
> • Send report of Public Policy Meeting to the community and policy discussion mailing lists including policy proposal discussion outcomes and open action items.
> • Monitor and moderate discussion during the concluding phase for comments period.
> • Summarize discussions and, following the end of the call for comments, post the decision regarding whether the proposal has reached rough consensus or not.
>
> 2.1.3 During a Public Policy Meeting
>
> • Chair the Public Policy meeting and moderate the discussions
> • Determine whether rough consensus has been achieved during the Public Policy Meeting
> • Monitor remote chat-room discussions during the AFRINIC Public Policy Meeting
> • Present the policy discussion working group report to the AFRINIC Public Policy Meeting.
>
> ######
>
> IT IS OBVIOUS THAT WITH PPD-BIS, CHAIRS WILL HAVE A MORE ACTIVE ROLE AND THE WHOLE PROCESS WILL DRASTICALLY IMPROVED. ONLINE DISCUSSIONS WILL BE MONITORED, MODERATED AND SUMMARISED. ISSUES LIST WILL BE MANAGED AND PROGRESS TRACKED.
> BIG CHANGES COMPARED TO THE CURRENT UNCONTROLLED EMAILS FLOW WHICH CONFUSE PEOPLE, LEAVE THE DISCUSSIONS AMONG A SMALL GROUP AND HENCE LIMIT PARTICIPATION.
>
> Hope this answers your questions
>
> [1] https://afrinic.net/policy/manual#PDP
> [2] https://afrinic.net/policy/development-working-group#guide
> [3] Chairs roles and responsibilities in a separate document named ‘pdwg guidelines and procedures’. Unfortunately the link pointing to this document attached to the proposal, is broken : see section 3.3 at https://afrinic.net/fr/policy/2017-gen-002-d4#proposal
>
>
>> Le 22 mai 2019 à 13:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es> a écrit :
>>
>> Hi Komi, all,
>>
>>
>> El 22/5/19 10:30, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> escribió:
>>
>> Hi Jordi,
>>
>>> On 20/05/2019 10:09, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Sorry, for some reason this email was not in the right folder, so didn't saw it before. Responding now, below in-line.
>> Hmm. ..you missed this important exchange... very strange, but it
>> happens....
>>
>> Well I agree, it happens, I recall when before the Dakar meeting some proposal authors didn't responded to previous emails (and they never did). See below regarding this, because it is expected that authors respond, it MUST NOT BE expected that community do.
>>
>> This is another motivation to update the PDP to better organize the
>> discussions and our work on proposals with active moderation of the
>> cochairs...
>>
>> I don't agree, but may be if there is a way we need to understand what it means "active moderation". I think the bigger problem with have in the Internet communities (even in IETF for example), is that people don't have time, or just don't pay attention, or don't want to pay attention. But if you are in that side of the playground, then you need to realize that you can't complain when rules (in our case policies), get adopted.
>>
>> Many got lost and confused easily in the unmoderated flow of mails.
>>
>> Big disagreement here. A PDP, by definition is an open and NOT MODERATED PROCESS AT ALL. It must be dynamic, and if some people don't participate, is not good, but that should not preclude the moderation of those that actually participate.
>>
>>>
>>> El 18/2/19 12:39, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com> escribió:
>>>
>>> Dear co-chairs,
>>>
>>> As you know, PDP update discussions at Afrinic-29 were rich and led
>>> to the abandonment of the competing proposal.
>>>
>>> This is incorrect. I voluntarily decided to withdraw my proposal, under the expectation that you will consider the community inputs (including those from me), to improve your proposal.
>> We heard you and made calls to the community to comment. I hope your
>> last search in the archives shows you the current situation.
>>
>> Please, realize that if I send an email to a given policy authors in November, it should not be needed that I resend the email 6 months after to get responses. If you volunteer to author a proposal, you commit to advance it according to the community discussion and respond timely to emails. This is not necessarily true for community participants, they can decide NOT to respond to authors emails.
>>
>>>
>>> PDP-BIS authors will not support a complete rewrite of the proposal
>>> under discussion, especially from author of the withdrawn proposal, who
>>> changed his mind after supporting the proposal at Afrinic 28
>>>
>>> You're saying it all. You don't want to cooperate with the community,
>> Since the inception of the proposal and as you can see in the archives
>> and through the revision history, community consensual inputs have
>> been driving the proposal.
>>
>> As for the collaboration with you, we have called for cochairs
>> mediation to ease things.
>>
>> On the other hand, "collaboration " does not mean one party’s view
>> automatically overweigh the other party’s views.
>>
>> Fully agree, but finding consensus means conceding to the community when it is clear that authors are wrong in something. Otherwise, consensus can't be declared.
>>
>>> which is the expected behavior according to the PDP, to improve the proposal. I was generous withdrawing my proposal just to avoid and endless discussion, but if you have this position, I should resubmit my proposal and the community can decide which one is better.
>> You are free to do what you want and we will see how things evolve. It
>> is interesting that this working group is incapable of working out a
>> consensual PDP when we are talking about lack of participation
>>
>> Just want to make sure that you think if your complex process is simplifying the increase of community participation. I think is not the case, others may disagree, but at least, we have now discussed concrete pieces that may be reworded to get them right.
>>
>>>
>>> The current version of PDP-BIS proposal is the fruit of community inputs
>>> and raise of multiple concerns. We welcome new areas of *essential*
>>> improvement if we have not dealt with yet.
>>>
>>> That's wrong. The PDP is about improvements not just "essential" ones.
>> Was it not you who said " such work, cannot be perfect from 1st version"?
>> I am sure if we focus on the essential ones, we will agree to live with
>> the rest.
>>
>> Of course, but both things are compatible. I usually don't expect that a 1st version of a policy proposal is right, but if you don't keep improving it along new version, it will not happen.
>>
>>>
>>> Please, lead this process to conclusion.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> On behalf of PDP-BIS Authors
>>
>>
>>
>>
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