[rpd] Last Call for "AFPUB-2016-GEN-001-DRAFT-04 - Internet Number Resources Review by AFRINIC"

Thu Jul 20 11:12:11 UTC 2017

Hello,

I came across this various services offered by Larus cloud services
amongst them IPv4 sales/trading. 

https://www.laruscloudservice.net/ip-delegation-service

Below is an excerpt from the site;

----------------------
[IP DELEGATION SERVICE]
LARUS has a mega pool of IPv4 addresses to provide unmatched IPv4
address solutions in the world. IP addresses will be delegated to you
directly from Larus's own IP pool. You will use the IP addresses like
yours without limitation on geography and usage. This is a flexible and
speedy service to meet your business needs.
----------------------

Honestly, I wonder how much IPv4 space from the AFRINIC pool is owned by
the organization Larus Cloud Services? 

I run a couple of whois queries and found the following:

(Organization) : whois -h whois.afrinic.net 'Larus Cloud Service'
----------------------

organisation: ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC
org-name: Larus cloud service Limited
org-type: LIR
country: SC
address: C/o Abacus (Seychelles) Limited
address: Mont Fleuri, Mahe
phone: +359 897641784
phone: +852 2988 8918
admin-c: HL6-AFRINIC
tech-c: DH15-AFRINIC
mnt-ref: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
mnt-ref: LCSL1-MNT
mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

person: David Hilario
address: Ul. Zaychar 54 floor 3, Apartment 11
address: Sofia 1309
address: Bulgaria
phone: +359 897641784
nic-hdl: DH15-AFRINIC
mnt-by: mine
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

person: Heng LU
address: Ebene
address: MU
address: Mahe
address: Seychelles
phone: +248 4 610 795
nic-hdl: HL6-AFRINIC
mnt-by: HLU
source: AFRINIC # Filtered
----------------------

Below is a list of resources held by Larus;

whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -T inetnum -i og
'ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC'

----------------------
inetnum: 196.251.244.0 - 196.251.247.255
netname: Larus-Cloud-v4
descr: Larus cloud service Limited
country: SC
org: ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC
admin-c: HL6-AFRINIC
tech-c: DH15-AFRINIC
status: ALLOCATED PA
mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
mnt-lower: LCSL1-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

person: David Hilario
address: Ul. Zaychar 54 floor 3, Apartment 11
address: Sofia 1309
address: Bulgaria
phone: +359 897641784
nic-hdl: DH15-AFRINIC
mnt-by: mine
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

person: Heng LU
address: Ebene
address: MU
address: Mahe
address: Seychelles
phone: +248 4 610 795
nic-hdl: HL6-AFRINIC
mnt-by: HLU
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

----------------------

One of the sub-allocations/assignment from above Block
(196.251.244.0/22) is actually assigned to some Saudi Arabia entity as
per below whois query.

whois -h whois.afrinic.net -M '196.251.244.0 - 196.251.247.255'

----------------------
inetnum: 196.251.244.0 - 196.251.244.255
netname: SA-ITC-20120518
descr: Integrated Telecom Co. Ltd
country: SA
org: ORG-ITCL1-AFRINIC
admin-c: IR1052-AFRINIC
tech-c: IR1052-AFRINIC
status: ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by: LCSL1-MNT
mnt-routes: LCSL1-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

----------------------

Larus Cloud Services has no ASN and IPv6

whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -i og
'ORG-LCSL1-AFRINIC'

Furthermore, I noticed that the domains laruscloudservice.net and
cloudinnovation.org have the same owner.

----------------------
Domain Name: laruscloudservice.net
Registrant Name: Heng Lu
Registrant Organization: Larus Cloud Service Limited.
Registrant Street: 903 Dannies HSE
Registrant Street: 20 LUARD RD
Registrant City: WAN CHAI
Registrant State/Province: HONG KONG
Registrant Postal Code: 9741mh
Registrant Country: HK
Registrant Phone: +31.641734323
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax:
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email: h.lu at outsideheaven.com

Domain Name: CLOUDINNOVATION.ORG
Registrant Name: Lu Heng
Registrant Organization: AnytimeChinese
Registrant Street: Esdoornlaan 656
Registrant City: Groningen
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Postal Code: 9741MH
Registrant Country: NL
Registrant Phone: +31.641734323
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax:
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email: er4tmx4khysehimnwr3s at l.o-w-o.info

----------------------

Cloud innovation
================

Cloud innovation and Larus Cloud share the same physical address and
contacts: 

whois -h whois.afrinic.net 'CLOUD INNOVATION'

----------------------
organisation: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC
org-name: Cloud Innovation Ltd
org-type: LIR
country: SC
address: C/o Abacus (Seychelles) Limited
address: Mont Fleuri, Mahe
address: Seychelles
address: Mahe
phone: +248 4 610 795
phone: +248 4 610 795
admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC
tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC
mnt-ref: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
mnt-ref: CIL1-MNT
mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered
person: OutsideHeaven Support
nic-hdl: OS9-AFRINIC
address: Ebene
address: MU
address: Mahe
address: Seychelles
phone: +248 4 610 795
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

person: OutsideHeaven Support
nic-hdl: OS9-AFRINIC
address: Ebene
address: MU
address: Mahe
address: Seychelles
phone: +248 4 610 795
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

----------------------

In fact, Cloud Innovation Ltd has 2x /11 and 2x /12 IPv4 address space
allocated to them: 

whois -h whois.afrinic.net -r -T aut-num -T inet6num -T inetnum -i og
'ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC'

inetnum: 154.192.0.0 - 154.223.255.255
netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-II
descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd
country: SC
org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC
admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC
tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC
status: ALLOCATED PA
mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

inetnum: 154.80.0.0 - 154.95.255.255
netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-I
descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd
country: SC
org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC
admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC
tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC
status: ALLOCATED PA
mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT
mnt-domains: CIL1-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

inetnum: 156.224.0.0 - 156.255.255.255
netname: CloudInnovation-infrastructure
descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd
country: SC
org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC
admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC
tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC
status: ALLOCATED PA
mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

inetnum: 45.192.0.0 - 45.207.255.255
netname: Cloud-Innovation-v4-I
descr: Cloud Innovation Ltd
country: SC
org: ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC
admin-c: OS9-AFRINIC
tech-c: OS9-AFRINIC
status: ALLOCATED PA
mnt-by: AFRINIC-HM-MNT
mnt-lower: CIL1-MNT
mnt-domains: CIL1-MNT
source: AFRINIC # Filtered

Cloud Innovation Ltd just like Larus Cloud Services doesn't have any ASN
and IPv6 as an LIR with so much space.

whois -h whois.afrinic.net -T aut-num -T inet6num -i og
'ORG-CIL1-AFRINIC'

Could all the above explain the vehement opposition of the people listed
as contacts for both Larus Cloud Service and Cloud innovation [1]?

If so much IPv4 space/resources above was allocated to these LIR's for
legitimate purposes, it should not be a problem. They will pass review
and have ability to use the intra RIR transfer too. 

Regards,
Daniel

[1] Heng Lu and David Hilario 

On 2017-07-19 22:55, Mike Burns wrote: 

> Hi Noah,
> 
> There have been over 5,000 policy-compliant global IPv4 sales since
> 2010.
> 
> The concept is that the profit motive will incentivize those who hold
> unused addresses make them available to sell them to somebody with a
> need for them. This profit could be an incentive to renumber more
> efficiently to free up blocks, or to provide some compensation for the
> expense of that renumbering.
> 
> Without the profit motive, the only other motive is charity.
> 
> Charity has not proven to be effective in bringing unused addresses
> back to those who need them, but a market has proven to be quite
> effective.  That said, I know that at least two /8 holders voluntarily
> returned their blocks to ARIN years ago.
> 
> A RIPE study revealed that most address sales are of older legacy
> blocks that have not appeared in the routing table for a long time.
> 
> This is evidence that the lure of profit has functioned more
> effectively than any prior threat of revocation to move addresses from
> a low- or no-use environment and into the hands of those who need them
> to run operational networks.
> 
> In order to foster this market, other registries have removed the
> threat of revocation for utilization from their policies and RSAs in
> order to make it clear to prospective sellers that the registries will
> act as partners to address-holders seeking to sell, and not as judges
> or juries with the power of revocation.
> 
> Yes, it is quite a shock that formerly public resources are now
> yielding windfalls for address holders, but the importance of creating
> a market to fulfill the needs of those seeking address has been judged
> to outweigh the queasiness we may feel when witnessing the enrichment
> of address-holders who sell their blocks.
> 
> If the role of AFRINIC is to get blocks into the hands of those who
> need them, and the free pool is dry, what is the best way to answer
> that need? One way is to audit, revoke, and recover unutilized space. 
> The other way is to harness the profit motive to lift unutilized
> addresses to their "highest and best" use.
> 
> ARIN, APNIC, and RIPE debated these two options and chose the market
> route. I think 5,000 transfers is evidence that the correct decision
> was taken.  
> 
> LACNIC has also chosen to allow a market for IPv4 addresses to
> develop, but unlike the other registries, LACNIC has not removed the
> threat of revocation in its policies and RSA.  A comparison in
> transfer volume between the LACNIC region and the other regions
> provides possible evidence that retaining the revocation threat is
> detrimental to the market, as the volume in LACNIC is very, very low,
> at 10 total transfers to date.
> 
> And surely you know that people will be buying and selling IPv4 in
> Africa very soon:
> 
> https://www.afrinic.net/en/library/news/2085-afrinic-board-ratifies-policy-proposal-ipv4-resources-transfer-within-the-afrinic-region
> 
> I have facilitated transfers to recipients in 60 countries, and soon
> that will include African countries.  I am proud to have helped get
> address blocks into the hands of the buyers in these countries, and
> there is nothing "so-called" about IP brokerage. It's a new
> world, Noah, perhaps you should be the one bracing yourself.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mike Burns
> 
> IPTrading.com
> 
> FROM: Noah [mailto:noah at neo.co.tz] 
> SENT: Wednesday, July 19, 2017 3:22 PM
> TO: Bill Woodcock <woody at pch.net>
> CC: rpd List <rpd at afrinic.net>
> SUBJECT: Re: [rpd] Last Call for "AFPUB-2016-GEN-001-DRAFT-04 -
> Internet Number Resources Review by AFRINIC"
> 
> On Jun 26, 2017, at 8:37 PM, Lu Heng <h.lu at anytimechinese.com> wrote: This policy is in direct conflict with transfer policy, if someone wants to sell their address space, they surely not commit to use it
> with the original purpose, should AFRINIC instead of allowing them
> to transfer the space, but reclaim them and redistribute them for
> "better use"? If that is the case, the transfer policy will have no
> use because of that.

Woow

So your worry is that someone will not be in a position to "sell" idle
IP address space through the transfer policy?

I always thought the fundamental premise was for INR's to be allocated
for use that can promote internet expansion rather than profit from
INR's.

On 12 Jul 2017 9:14 a.m., "Bill Woodcock" <woody at pch.net> wrote:

> I would just like to point out that the AfriNIC community does not
> exist to serve the financial interests of those who wish to sell
> addresses, rather than use them.

 + Bill 

And whoever in their wildest thoughts think the community shall seat
back and see them trade IPv4 for any other reason beyond using them to
build infracture and extend internet related services in AFRICA should
brace themselves for now.

> The AfriNIC community is the community of people who need IP
> addresses, in order to route them and give people access to the
> Internet.

+1 Bill

> The AfriNIC policy process exists to serve those who wish to _use_
> IP addresses, not those who wish to profit from them at the expense
> of the community.

+1 Bill

Especially those who wish to profit from INR's especially the so
called IPv4 brokers. There is AFRINIC for goodness sake.

Cheers,

Noah
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