[Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates

[Paul Hjul]

It would help if you know what "ad homimen" meant.

An arguendo ad hominem is a logical fallacy in which an appeal to the
attributes of the person is made.

Presumably you are cop-ping to having been the chair whose departure
enabled a surplus. Does that mean you are alleging that after you left the
Board cut a dirty deal to improve the organizations finances?

Andrew could have called you a total moron and it wouldn't be an ad
hominem. It would be a personal attack and contrary to the community
standards for which Andrew would be censured in some shape or form but it
would not be an ad hominem. Also because the censure would follow wholly
from the personal attack aspect and be wholly disconnected from the crux of
the argument it wouldn't matter if it was entirely true or not.
What Andrew could not do without being guilty of an ad hominem is to say
that you'd only make the argument which you do because of your political
affiliations.


On Tue, 30 Nov 2021, 09:35 Badru Ntege, <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com> wrote:

> 😊 need to invoke that big word “ad hominem”
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: signature_2058268178]
>
>
>
> *From: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 30 November 2021 at 10:27
> *To: *Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>, Paul Hjul <
> hjul.paul at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>, AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject: *RE: [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
> Badru,
>
>
>
> Can I suggest you go back and take a class in maths 101.
>
>
>
> Said member pays an annual fee of $38,400 a year – and some how – in your
> mind the million dollar a year surplus is derived from a $38,400 a year
> additional revenue?  Wow – I want to live in your world where I get $38,400
> and end up with a million dollars.
>
>
>
> Reality is – most of the surplus came when the chair of the board and the
> former ceo were changed – unfortunately without a forensic audit to see
> what was happening while they were there – its hard to point directly at
> where the losses were coming from
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 30, 2021 10:17 AM
> *To:* Paul Hjul <hjul.paul at gmail.com>; Andrew Alston <
> Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc:* Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
> We must all note that the financial surplus being boasted on here was a
> result of allowing a non region entity to get allocated more resources than
> most African countries have.
>
>
>
> This was done as many members questioned what was going on and the current
> crisis and court cases could be very easily linked to those decisions.
> I’m not insinuating but pondering.
>
>
>
> So it’s best we focus on how we fix the current reality and not dig up the
> past.
>
>
>
> We have bylaws we need to follow them.   If they are missing I repeat we
> need to use our PDP to fix.   We follow the bylaws without calls for
> dispute resolution.
>
>
>
> There’s no dispute but simply a few who believe throwing money arround
> fixes everything.
>
>
>
> Everyone in the AfriNIC region has a right to the resources rich or poor.
>   It’s never been about the corporates but the individual.
>
>
>
> Let me get off my soap box :-) for now.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Paul Hjul <hjul.paul at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 30, 2021 10:04:12 AM
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc:* Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>; Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>;
> AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
> What is all the graver a problem is that the archive is replete with Noah
> embarking on ad hominem, spurious, xenophobic, tribalist and toxic
> distractions. Yet time and time again there is a failure to enforce any
> community standards.  In fact you or I are more likely to get red carded
> for hurting the feelings of dishonest malcontents.
>
>
>
> Just to pick up on something interesting here. There was a time when
> AfriNICs biggest internal threat was financial mismanagement. Once that
> boat was fixed the path to sustained surpluses was setup it was important
> to then make sure that the organization stuck with good practices and that
> it didn't become a surplus hording monster. Today the biggest internal
> threat to the organization is a de facto board strategy of riding roughshod
> over resource members commercial rights with an apparent goal of reclaiming
> for AfriNIC a cache of IPv4 address blocks - for which there is no cogent
> policy for distribution (the soft landing policy presumes a shortage which
> the reclaiming repudiate). If I recall from the archives correctly there
> was a lot of resistance to fixing the ship.
>
>
>
> I haven't quite been able to pick up to what extent the numnuts who caused
> an earlier financial crisis are now in the wings hoping to be beneficiaries
> of financial largesse which they hope can be attained through the
> organization discriminating against members.  If it is the case that they
> are the same people then I am afraid AfriNICs surface problems will shift
> and manifest into different symptoms all covering up the real problem.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2021, 08:37 Andrew Alston, <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> wrote:
>
> 100% I am the same man – and for that I make NO apologies.
>
>
>
> AfriNIC is a monopoly because of its lack of transfer policy – something
> that I have pushed for years – including while I was on the board to
> rectify this situation.
>
>
>
> I stand by when I ran for the board – and I did it – because at that point
> – AfriNIC was closing in on bankruptcy – go and look at the financials –
> zero reserve – clocking 10s of thousands of dollars a year in losses.  When
> I left the board – we’d turned over a million-dollar surplus and were well
> on the way to getting financial stability (though unfortunately even that
> now is in a situation where the organization contains to make vast amounts
> of money far beyond what it was meant to)
>
>
>
> Is AfriNIC a monopoly? 100% it is – does that need to be fixed – 100% does
> it does – does it have anything to do with me being on the board? Hell no
> it doesn’t – and quite frankly Noah, your distraction and obfuscation and
> ad-hominem attacks to distract from the fallacy of your own arguments is
> nothing short of eye wateringly amusing and shows just how low you have
> sunk – when your arguments fail – throw stinky brown stuff into the fan and
> hope some of the resulting mess sticks.
>
>
>
> Grow up
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Noah <noah at neo.co.tz>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2021 6:36 PM
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Cc:* Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>; Paul Hjul <
> hjul.paul at gmail.com>; AfriNIC Discuss <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> Are you the same individual who asked the membership years ago to vote for
> you, so that you can serve as a board director of AFRINIC?
>
>
>
> The same AFRINIC you refer to as a monopoly?
>
>
>
> Noah
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021, 10:26 Andrew Alston via Members-Discuss, <
> members-discuss at afrinic.net> wrote:
>
> Telecom regulatory authorities are state – therefore exempt from
> monopolies acts and anti-trust action under the law.
>
> ICANN – well actually not exactly – because the RIR’s have the choice to
> use someone else if they wish to since the transition if my understanding
> is correct (someone can correct me if I am wrong)
>
> RIR’s are defacto monopolies in the absence of transfer policies – once
> they have transfer policies – they are no longer monopolies since anyone
> can transfer anywhere.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2021 10:08 AM
> *To:* Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>; Paul Hjul <
> hjul.paul at gmail.com>; members-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I’m hearing interesting messages from people who fought ITU (government)
> entering the business of the internet so vehemently only a few years ago.
>
>
>
> Every Telecom regulatory  Authority is a national monopoly because that’s
> how we get the universal service and ensure equitable service delivery in
> our individual countries.   ICANN one would say is a defacto Monopoly.
> RIR’s are defacto Monopolies …….and the argument can continue.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
> Badru
>
>
>
> *From: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
> *Date: *Monday, 29 November 2021 at 09:34
> *To: *Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>, Paul Hjul <
> hjul.paul at gmail.com>, "members-discuss at afrinic.net" <
> members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject: *RE: [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
> We also have a situation where AfriNIC is a defacto monopoly – very likely
> in contravention of anti-trust statutes – the very fastest way to get that
> tested – is the day that a monopoly denies service to an African entity
> because it chose to go to court to have its issues addressed.
>
>
>
> Then again – maybe forcing the hand and forcing the anti-trust issue so
> that its settled may not be such a bad idea – it may resolve several things.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Badru Ntege <badru.ntege at nftconsult.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 28, 2021 8:01 AM
> *To:* Paul Hjul <hjul.paul at gmail.com>; members-discuss at afrinic.net
> *Subject:* Re: [members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
>
>
> @Paul Hjul <hjul.paul at gmail.com>
>
>
>
> You have every right to your opinion on the way forward and so do I.
>
>
>
> For your information I have been a member of AfriNIC from its inception
> and still are today.
>
>
>
> But let me remind you that not being a resource member does not limit me
> from having an opinion.   I speak as a member of the community who also
> happens to be a resource member.
>
>
>
> let’s do a hypothetical here.
>
>
>
> Would you opt to go into dispute resolution if you caught a thief
> red-handed in your house ??.  I know or hope you would not take the law in
> your hands but you would let the existing law take its due course.
>
>
>
> The proposition here is very simple.  AfriNIC the organization has its
> rules pertaining to who can and cannot be a member.  It also has rules on
> how one continues to be a member.
>
>
>
> All we are asking is that the Board and Legal teams investigate whether
> our internal laws have been broken and if they have been broken to follow
> what rules of behavior we all signed up to and the consequences therein.
>
>
>
> What I hear from you and I might be wrong here is that even though our
> rules might have been broken, we should not follow the rules but we should
> go into dispute resolution with a perpetrator who has shown very clearly
> more than once that the survival of AfriNIC is not in their interest.
>
>
>
> And what I hear from others is that following the set rule would set a
> precedence for this rule to be used again in future. ??????    But if I’m
> not wrong that’s what rules and code’s of conduct are made.
>
>
>
> We need to be objective here.
>
>
>
> Lets allow other differing opinions to guide us
>
>
>
> But we also have a process of changing rules that we think do not help the
> organization and if you feel the rule Noah refers to does not help the
> organization it can be changed.    But also members who feel the current
> rule is not clear enough also have a right to propose a tougher rule after
> the experience we have gone through this year.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Paul Hjul <hjul.paul at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Saturday, 27 November 2021 at 12:30
> *To: *"members-discuss at afrinic.net" <members-discuss at afrinic.net>
> *Subject: *[members-discuss] Afrinic Court Updates
>
>
>
> >>Thanks Noah
>
> >>Seems like the pandemic has also affected common sense.
>
> >>We just need to remove the bad players in our membership and continue
> our journey of connecting Africa to the internet who are physically ?On
> Ground? and not ?ON Cloud?.
>
> >>These bylaw games and company Act threats have been overplayed for far
> too long.
>
> >>We as members and the community at large need to move beyond this with
> intention.
>
> >> I still support our legal teams and Board to explore what options we
> have of removing destructive members.   And if we do not have its about
> time that we made proposals to ensure the future protection of AfriNIC.
>
> >> Regards
>
>
>
> Turns out I was wrong and that there are resource members who are going to
> support the destruction of Afrinic. I still don't think that there are any
> South African members who are so inclined.
>
>
>
> If you could please let us know which resource member you are speaking for
> - this mail makes it clear that you want to speak as a member and your
> domain doesn't indicate which member that is.
>
>
>
> It is quite important that those resource members who are causing the
> problems by advocating that the organization remove members on a wrongful
> basis be identifiable.
>
>
>
> Or are you now going to claim to be speaking entirely in your personal
> capacity in which case it really should be put out to the community
>
>
>
> For what it is worth as the member Crystal Web we are in full support of
> the organization opposing (resisting is the wrong word) an action for the
> winding up of the organization on the basis that such a winding up is not
> in the interests of the members and would result in disruption to the
> global Internet. As Crystal Web we are in full support of the organization
> entering into credible dispute resolution processes with any person
> (whether a member or not) who has brought proceedings as against the
> organization before any court of law and to make a determination as to the
> basis upon which to settle any such action in accordance with sound legal
> and commercial principles and not in accordance with ideological or
> emotional preferences of whoever happens to be on the Board at the time.
> When suits that are vexatious or unmeritous are brought, we have full
> confidence that due and proper legal processes will address the matter and
> insist that the organization at all times act expeditiously in litigation
> to bring about just outcomes. As Crystal Web we are opposed to the
> organization engaging in tactics in litigation that serves to stall or
> embark on costly gamemanship in distraction of a just and proper resolution
> of the true underlying dispute.
>
>
>
> As Crystal Web we wish for the organization to adhere to its own by-laws
> except where it is credibly established on independent advice of counsel
> (having a right of audience before the Supreme Court of Mauritiu), which
> advise needs to be circulated with members that the by-law is in conflict
> with the laws of Mauritius. As Crystal Web we insist that the organization
> show proper respect and regard for the Supreme Court of Mauritius and that
> it avoid acting in a manner that could even be reasonably perceived as
> demonstrating contumen towards the courts. We insist that the laws of
> Mauritius and the principles of natural justice permeate all activity of
> the organization. As Crystal Web we insist that the organization treat its
> members fairly and in a spirit of cooperation, we are therefore gravely
> opposed to the attitude shown by in-house counsel for Afrinic in inviting
> litigation before exhausting reasonable engagements that do not put the
> organization at peril.
>
>
>
> As Crystal Web we wish that the organization would focus its efforts on
> holding accountable those persons found credibly to have engaged in
> fraudulent activity. We are opposed to the conflating legitimate commercial
> activity which may be disliked by certain factions with criminal activity
> and find it wholly unacceptable for the organization to make such
> conflation in a manner that exposes the organization to risk.
>
>
>
> Speaking as myself, if the organization sticks to these principles and
> rather considers dealing with those members and individuals in the
> community who represent the true threat to the organization - namely those
> who wish to steer the organization into a path of lawlessness - in an
> appropriate manner things will quickly come right.
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> (Crystal Web)
>
> _______________________________________________
> Members-Discuss mailing list
> Members-Discuss at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/members-discuss
>
>
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