[rpd] [Community-Discuss] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM

[Christian Orozco]

Hello Fernando,

In these discussions, it is very important to maintain other's freedom to
share their arguments. You may have laid out your own points (or bases),
but it is also important to ask yourself if those are logical enough to be
accepted as the "answer" to the crucial issue at hand. We can hardly find
the true and exact answer to the arguments and that's why most people here
want to hear from AFRINIC - to seek clarity and actually know its
motivations. We are here exchanging points we find most reasonable just
like you do.

 Also, you stated:  "*when someone is in defense of something they may
depend on there is nothing can be said for them to be convinced,
unfortunately." *Don't you think that applies to you as well? Many relevant
arguments for IP leasing have been made (i.e. how other RIRs allow it as
well and how some African enterprises benefit from such IP services), but
you still get to quickly dismiss IP leasing as something that's absurd.



Respectfully,
Christian



On Wed, Jul 14, 2021 at 8:36 PM Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
wrote:


> What an enddless repetition of the same thing over and over oh dear !

> Not only me but othesr have mentioned several different basis for that

> throughout this conversation but it seems simply this is not accepted by

> some and they keep asking the same thing as maybe the only way to keep

> defending absurd stuff as IP Leasing as something "normal and acceptable".

> If we reply again saying all the basis someone will ask "What is your

> basis?". When someone is in defense of something they may depend on there

> is nothing can be said for them to be convinced, unfortunately.

>

> Fernando

> Em 7/14/2021 6:05 AM, Owen DeLong escreveu:

>

>

>

> On Jul 2, 2021, at 10:36 , Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> wrote:

>

> So they are relying on a wrong option which should never have relied.

>

> What is your basis (specifically, section numbers please) in policy (CPM,

> RSA, or bylaws) for calling this “wrong”?

>

> If they have needs for IPv4 (as everybody else) and they cannot get these

> addresses directly from the RIR as per the current rules which apply

> equally to everybody they have the option to use Inter-RIR transfer policy

> available on all other RIRs.

>

> But this option is not available to AFRINIC resource members at this time,

> so what should they do in this instance?

>

> If these organizations are from outside Africa region then it is even

> worst they grab unused addressed that were assigned to a local company to

> use somewhere else out of the region.

>

> It seems to me that this is a moral judgment based strictly on your own

> opinion with no basis in policy. If you have a basis in policy for this

> argument, please present it.

> Please be specific and cite the relevant sections of the governing

> document that you base your conclusion on.

>

> Not everything that is useful or convenient to some is correct and as such

> should e stimulated and IP leasing mean the current holder doesn't justify

> for those addresses anymore, so either it gives it back to AfriNic or

> transfer them definitely.

>

> Again, this is a value judgment you are making without any valid basis in

> policy. If you believe there is such a basis, then please provide specific

> citation(s) showing same.

>

> Otherwise, kindly talk about what you believe should be policy rather than

> stating it as if it is fact.

>

> AFRINIC has done enough making up policy as they go along. It’s time to

> follow the policies as written. If you don’t like the policies as written,

> then there’s a process for changing them and you are completely free to

> submit a policy proposal to do so. If you need help figuring out the

> process, let me know. I will happily help you even though I will likely

> oppose your policy. I am all for a thorough debate of this topic around an

> appropriate policy proposal so that the community can make an informed

> choice once and for all and reduce the ambiguities that have plagued us so

> far.

>

> Owen

>

> Regards

> Fernando

> On 02/07/2021 14:29, Mimi dy wrote:

>

> Hello Fernando,

>

> Many organizations rely on IP Leasing in order to acquire number resources

> quickly and affordably to meet their current and future needs. It is

> totally legit, especially during the IPv4 exhaustion phase, where resource

> scarcity represents a real issue for ISPs and network-holders in AFRINIC's

> service area.

> I find it absurd that you are arguing against IP leasing when it is a

> legal and accurate way to obtain IPs. Indeed, there are some malicious

> organizations out there misusing leased IPs, but that is certainly not the

> case for everyone, so no need to generalize. Consequently, you cannot

> really dismiss IP leasing using weak arguments as such.

>

> Since IP leasing is very helpful to numerous entities in the period of

> shortage of available IP addresses, and is certainly legal, I fail to

> understand why you are advocating against it.

>

>

> Best,

>

>

>

>

>

> Le ven. 2 juil. 2021 à 16:48, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> a

> écrit :

>

>> Well, like it or not but having a customer that is in the leasing

>> business may effectively change our opinion about some subject, even if

>> personally you wish it may not to.

>>

>> Trying to find an exact 'ipsis literis' word in the CPM that fulfill or

>> not your expectations may not always work. There is always room for some

>> interpretation and staff is the one responsible to do that in this

>> context.

>> For the absurd leasing possibility is very simple: if leasing proposes

>> cannot be used as a justification to receive a new block from the RIR

>> why would it be after you receive it and missuse it for different

>> proposes other than bring connectivity to your customers. In that sense

>> I really hope staff stand strong in revoking resources that are being

>> used for leasing proposes, different from what they have been justified

>> originally and if necessary fight in courts of Mauritius to have that

>> decision preserved.

>>

>> For out of the region usage there have been multiple people who showed

>> that is not currently permitted. Maybe you don't agree with that but

>> bottom line is that is what staff has been interpreting from the current

>> rules backed by what some of us  have put here based in previous messages.

>>

>> Want to use AfriNic resources in a different region ? Simply transfer

>> them permanently using the soon-to-come Inter-RIR transfer policy and

>> bound to the rules of the new RIR.

>>

>> Regards

>> Fernando

>>

>> On 02/07/2021 04:46, Owen DeLong via RPD wrote:

>> > Full disclosure: I don’t personally have a dog in this fight. I am

>> personally

>> > agnostic as to whether leasing should or should not be permitted in a

>> > newly developed policy.

>> >

>> > I do have a client that I consult for which is in the leasing business.

>> It is my

>> > opinion that their leasing business is 100% compliant with policy as it

>> is

>> > written and that if the community doesn’t like that fact, the community

>> can

>> > and should certainly amend the policy to rectify the situation.

>> >

>> >> On Jun 29, 2021, at 03:08 , Frank Habicht <geier at geier.ne.tz> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> Hi,

>> >>

>> >> On 29/06/2021 12:01, Owen DeLong via RPD wrote:

>> >>> nectivity customers or use out of the region as something "normal and

>> >>> acceptable".

>> >>>

>> >>> Regardless of who does and does not benefit, the reality is that short

>> >>> of an actual government with the ability to enforce its rules using

>> >>> guns and prisons, people who can make a profit are going to do what

>> >>> they are going to do.

>> >> I need to break this down.

>> >> I'm working in my $dayjob for one of those companies that are after

>> >> $profit. What this company _did_ is subscribe to the methods and rules

>> >> of a Mauritius company called AfriNIC, in order to get Internet

>> >> Numbering Resources. And I think many of the AfriNIC members formally

>> >> subscribed to these rules. (And the rules are subject to change

>> >> according to PDP)

>> >>

>> >> These INR are provided to members per need and justification.

>> Relatively

>> >> recently additional rules came into force that limited each allocation

>> >> to maximum /22 - this is how rules can change.

>> >>

>> >> INR are delegated to members that need them themselves, and AfriNIC

>> >> calls these members "End-User" members. They are also delegated to

>> >> members that provide internet access to respective customers, and

>> >> AfriNIC calls these members "LIR" members.

>> > You are close, but the term used in the bylaws is “open system protocol

>> > network services”. I am not sure why such awkward and broad language

>> > was chosen, but that’s a much broader definition than “internet access”.

>> >

>> > In the CPM, LIR is defined as “An IR that receives allocations from an

>> RIR and primarily

>> > assigns address space to 'end-users’. LIRs are generally ISPs. Their

>> customers are other

>> > ISPs and possibly end-users. LIRs must be members of AFRINIC.”

>> >

>> > Again, there’s not a single word in that definition that ties it to

>> connectivity

>> > services or internet access.

>> >

>> >> I believe in all justifications for IPv4, LIR members request/require

>> >> the addresses to address customers, or servers, or VMs that get

>> >> connectivity services from the LIR member. And there is no problem with

>> >> that. LIR is in the business of making profit, providing connectivity,

>> >> hosting servers, services, needs IPs, gets IPs.

>> > Certainly this is the prevalent model, whether or not it is 100%

>> pervasive

>> > I am not sure.

>> >

>> >> There is a big difference to the case where an LIR member

>> >> - has IPv4 address space,

>> >> - is not using it themselves,

>> >> - not for connectivity (or hosting) customers

>> >> and has the IPv4 space used by "customers" that are only getting the

>> >> IPv4 space as a service - sold or leased.

>> > Is there? So long as the customers in question are justifying the space

>> to the

>> > same standards that an end-user applying to the RIR would have to or to

>> the

>> > same standard that would be required if they were also getting

>> connectivity

>> > from the LIR, then what exactly is the difference?

>> >

>> > What if the LIR in question did announce the covering aggregates of

>> space

>> > they leased and provided some minimal connectivity to the customer in

>> question?

>> > Now they meet the definition you’ve provided above, but they’re not

>> actually

>> > moving packets because the more-specific being announced to the

>> customer’s

>> > higher bandwidth providers will win vs. the aggregate.

>> >

>> > Does removing this connectivity fig leaf really change the nature of the

>> > assignment in a meaningful way?

>> >

>> >> Is that the purpose for which the IPv4 space was obtained and

>> justified?

>> > Since I don’t have access to anyone’s IPv4 justifications to AFRINIC in

>> a

>> > manner which would allow me to comment publicly, I’m going to skip this

>> > question. Suffice it to say, I can imagine a number of ways in which

>> this

>> > is possible.

>> >

>> >> There are "rules" that say an LIR should notify when use of an IP block

>> >> changes.

>> > Yes. The rules are, however, ambiguous at best and it’s not clear at

>> what

>> > level of detail a “change” is constituted nor is it clear whether an

>> update

>> > to whois is adequate notification in most circumstances.

>> >

>> >> I see a big difference between changes *within an LIR* and changes to

>> >> *use the IP space outside the AfriNIC member LIR*.

>> > So if I have space that was allocated to my LIR and I assigned it to

>> > customer A who is using the space in their network (technically outside

>> > of my LIR), but then they return the space when they get their own

>> > block and become a BYOA customer, my assigning that space to customer

>> > B for their use on their network (also outside my LIR) becomes a problem

>> > or change in the usage exactly why?

>> >

>> >> With the first, I consider it generally accepted that justification

>> remains.

>> >> With the latter, I believe that the *LIR that subscribed to AfriNIC

>> >> rules* has shown to no longer have the justification for these IPs for

>> >> connectivity and hosting, including "PA" customers.

>> > What if the justification in question was not “connectivity and

>> hosting”?

>> >

>> > What if the justification was “Numbering hosts on customer networks”?

>> >

>> >> The reason for doing the latter is obviously $profit, and yes - some "

>> >> are going to do what they are going to do ".

>> > The reason for the former was obviously profit, too. Nobody is in

>> business

>> > to subsidize the benefits of others without making a profit.

>> >

>> >> And what this community allows them to get away with.

>> > It’s not so much a question of “get away with” as “what the rules

>> actually

>> > say” from my perspective. You may wish to argue that the intent or even

>> > the clear intent of the community is something else, but in reality,

>> for rules to be

>> > useful, one must consider what the rules actually say, and not the

>> current

>> > popular interpretation of intent around the rules.

>> >

>> > Making it up as we go along has become somewhat of an AFRINIC tradition

>> > at this point, seemingly both in the staff actions and in the board,

>> PDWG,

>> > community, and various committees.

>> >

>> > There’s also a pretty strong history of doing so being the source of a

>> great

>> > many problems, so I continue to hope that we can learn from those

>> mistakes

>> > and start actually following the rules as they are written and making

>> the

>> > changes necessary through the proper processes when the rules do not

>> > meet the perceived needs of the current situation.

>> >

>> >> To be Frank: I simply don't believe that

>> >> AS212552    "BitCommand" in Armenia gets IP connectivity services from

>> >> ... you know who.

>> > Honestly, I don’t know who, but it’s easy enough to look up:

>> >

>> > https://bgp.he.net/AS212552#_irr

>> >

>> > Says that they get apparent transit from AS64515 and AS24940.

>> >

>> > This seems to be borne out by https://bgp.he.net/AS212552#_graph4

>> >

>> >> In other continents / RIRs the IPv4 space is finished. Noone has any

>> >> hope of justifying any with the RIR. Some have more than they need -

>> >> give or sell it to others that have "a need" and the market can

>> probably

>> >> regulate that.

>> > ARIN is still issuing /24s under NRPM section 4.10, so that’s not

>> entirely

>> > correct.

>> >

>> >> But AfriNIC still has and is distributing IPv4 - should it do so by

>> >> "whoever pays most" or "everyone according to their need [upto a /22

>> >> ;-)]". Has it given IPv4 resources to members according to their

>> >> respective (perceived) needs???

>> >>

>> >> Wasn't one of the rules that the LIR was to use the IPs for the

>> >> connectivity (or hosting) services?

>> > I’ve reviewed the bylaws, the RSA, and the CPM pretty carefully. I

>> couldn’t

>> > find a connectivity requirement other than one that calls for the

>> numbers

>> > to be “routed on the internet” (which, btw, is a unique requirement in

>> > AFRINIC not present in other RIRs).

>> >

>> >> Are the rules still applicable?

>> > The rules still apply as written, but that’s the real sticking point.

>> Do we

>> > want to focus on the common perception of what we think the rules

>> > say (as you have done above) or do we want to review the rules as

>> > they are written and call for the enforcement of those rules according

>> > to a plain text interpretation of their actual content?

>> >

>> >> bit more below...

>> >>

>> >>> I’m not particularly happy about this reality, but I do recognize that

>> >>> it is, in fact, reality and I’m not in favor of giving RIRs guns or

>> >>> the ability to incarcerate people. Contracts only get you so far and

>> >>> clever people can always find ways to comply with the letter of a

>> >>> contract while circumventing the other party's intent if they want to

>> >>> try hard enough.

>> >>>

>> >>> So no, these are not “nice words”, they are the recognition of

>> >>> unpleasant and inconvenient truths that like it or not, we are faced

>> >>> with new realities, economic, technical, and legal.

>> >> Is one of these realities that an LIR got resources from AfriNIC for

>> >> providing connectivity (or hosting) services, and now these are no

>> >> longer in place?

>> > I have no knowledge of such a situation, but in truth I have not read

>> > the original justification for the space issued to the LIR I think you

>> > are referring to.

>> >

>> >>> In many countries legal frameworks the lack of a transfer policy

>> >>> allowing registrants to monetize the transfer of their registrations

>> >>> could be considered either restraint of trade or an

>> >>> anti-trust/anti-competitive matter.

>> >> the fact is that these numbers should be unique and centrally managed.

>> >> These anti-trust lawyers can send a better proposal for managing them.

>> > The ability to sell one’s registration to another does not in any way

>> impinge

>> > the central management of numbers for uniqueness.

>> >

>> >> The question is whether "according to need" or "according to whoever

>> >> offers more $$".

>> > This assumes that monetized transfers and/or leasing cannot be done

>> > on the basis of need, which is a false premise. To the best of my

>> knowledge,

>> > Larus is quite scrupulous and detailed in collecting need justification

>> from

>> > customers prior to issuing addresses to them. That is certainly the

>> written

>> > company policy and has been the case with each and every recipient

>> > case I have been involved with in my consulting for them.

>> >

>> >> Should I be allowed to "buy" a /16 from AfriNIC, put it in a safe, sell

>> >> it 3 years later for $profit ???

>> > No. The rules prohibit you putting it in a safe and not routing it.

>> Also, you

>> > aren’t buying the /16, you are paying a fee for the service of

>> recording and

>> > maintaining the registration of the space. You can’t sell the integers,

>> but

>> > selling the registration of the integers has become common practice

>> > worldwide whether you like it or not.

>> >

>> >> Is that the purpose for which AfriNIC got the /8's from IANA?

>> > Things have changed since the IANA was issuing /8s. The world has

>> changed.

>> > Many of the /8s were issued by the IANA in order to support Email, FTP,

>> and

>> > NNTP. I suspect there are very few servers running FTP or NNTP these

>> days,

>> > and while EMAIL is still a pervasive technology (for better or worse),

>> it is not

>> > a significant fraction of internet traffic.

>> >

>> > Very few of the /8s issued by IANA were issued during a time when

>> streaming

>> > video could have been considered as a purpose for issuing them, yet

>> today

>> > it is probably the largest consumer of bandwidth on the internet by far.

>> >

>> > Should we require all of the RIRs that have issued space to Netflix

>> after

>> > IANA runout to reclaim and return that space to IANA and rejustify it

>> because

>> > streaming video was not the purpose for which it was issued?

>> >

>> > I think not.

>> >

>> >> PS: all or most questions are serious. answers will help.

>> > All of the answers were serious as well. I’d expect nothing less from

>> > someone of your stature in the community.

>> >

>> > I hope the answers are helpful.

>> >

>> > Owen

>> >

>> >

>> > _______________________________________________

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>> > RPD at afrinic.net

>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

>>

>>

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