[rpd] Unaddressed queries by AFRINIC during AGMM

[Meriem Dayday]

How about addressing the points I mentioned instead of repeating the same
statements over and over again?
Can you please give me a clear example of an RIR who bans IP leasing or is
explicitly against it ?

I think you are just refusing to digest REAL facts and repeating the same
song due to the lack of valid arguments.


Best,

Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à 01:08, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> a
écrit :


> Unbelievable what an amount of absurd we have to cope with here sometimes.

> I guess that is s result of total lack of understanding of how things work

> and have always worked.

>

> If a resource holder has a fair amount of **unused IPs** these addresses

> MUST be returned back to AfriNic or transferred to another member who has

> justification for it, period. There is no middle term for that nor

> philosophical or beautiful words to make something different or noble.

> If any organization has to lease IPs in order to work it is already

> loosing because it could be a AfriNic member getting these same addresses

> directly from AfriNic from not a third part at a higher price.

>

> IP addresses are meant to build and develop internet ecosystem not to stay

> with an organization which does not use them and or be rented to someone

> else at a higher cost.

> It is also false information that all RIRs allow IP leasing.

>

> Please improve your basis to discuss certain matters and don't spread

> false information.

> On 08/07/2021 18:53, Mimi dy wrote:

>

>

> Hi Fernando,

>

>

>

>

>

> First, I find it important to remind you that the Internet is ONE.

> Moreover, the African region will immensely benefit from this activity,

> how? African ISPs/ network-holders can start leasing out unused IPs,

> creating a whole connectivity ecosystem, which primarily can help them

> generate more income, and more prominently, small scale enterprises/ tech

> start-ups…etc., will also thrive through IP leasing instead of dedicating a

> large portion of their capital to pay RIR membership fees. Additionally,

> the organizations that have the capacity to lease IP addresses to richer

> countries (i.e., Australia) will definitely generate an important profit

> that will be used for the striving of internet connectivity worldwide. If

> you do not see that as an economic growth incentive and a comparative

> advantage, I suggest you give it a second thought.

>

>

>

> As a matter of fact, all RIRs allow IP leasing, and inter-RIR resources

> transfer, because there is no harm in liberating number resources and

> allowing them to be globally transferrable. It is important to realize

> that, in this day and age, the whole concept of the Internet is rooted in

> openness, freedom and sharing, if you start elaborating restrictive laws

> and regulations, the internet will be no different from a communist

> government, which can lead to catastrophic repercussions.

>

>

>

> To sum up, number resources are valuable assets and should be used in a

> strategic and intelligent way, which can be beneficial for the whole

> Internet, while of course maintaining its cooperative nature.

>

>

>

>

>

> Best,

>

> Le mer. 7 juil. 2021 à 23:51, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com> a

> écrit :

>

>> There are several points and places that make it cristal clear that the

>> idea of IP Leasing is not just something absurd in terms of IP usage but

>> also against different rules in place. However some keep repeating the

>> words are not written in the way "they" would like to read and ignoring all

>> that just because that might go against their business.

>>

>> All that Noah put below makes sense even to a newbie in Internet Business

>> so any company who need smaller allocations get them from their LIR which

>> provides connectivity and that's the main propose these LIRs justified the

>> need of these addresses when they were request to AfriNic. These business

>> are developing internet in Africa by allocating internet resources for the

>> purposes of enabling communications which is also provided by these same

>> businesses. What communications are enabled by a member who has unused

>> resources and is renting it to another member - or worst - in many cases to *a

>> member of another RIR elsewhere* - therefore out of the region?

>>

>> What promotion of responsible management of Internet resources is being

>> done *throughout the African region* when a member simply rent these

>> resources to someone out of the region ? What development and operation of

>> Internet infrastructure is being done in Africa ?

>>

>> Every unused resource with hold by a member is one chunk of less of

>> resources in AfriNic's pool. What is the point of exhausting that pool

>> completely and force newcomers to pay a higher price for the same resources

>> they could get directly from AfriNic if these unused resources simply used

>> for renting would have been returned back to AfriNic pool ? AfriNic looses

>> newer members and in turn these companies become dependent from another

>> company whose business is not transporting a single bit throughout the

>> African region.

>>

>> Isn't all that enough to stop those who blindly keep trying to make IP

>> Leasing and usage out of the region something normal and that should be

>> accepted by AfriNic ?

>>

>> Fernando

>> On 07/07/2021 13:15, Noah wrote:

>>

>>

>>

>> On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 1:06 AM Anthony Ubah <ubah.tonyiyke at gmail.com>

>> wrote:

>>

>>> Hi Noah,

>>>

>>>

>> Hi Oga Ubah,

>>

>>

>>> What you describe sounds nice if you are one of the established ISPs who

>>> are running a top to bottom network. However you can not say the same

>>> for smaller enterprises, too small to be an LIR, and unable to run full

>>> operations profitably, giving inability to afford the RIR/AFRINIC fees.

>>>

>>

>> RIR membership fees are annual and AFRINIC today has close to 200

>> resource members across the region both large and small.

>>

>> I know a good number of small enterprises across the eastern coast of

>> Africa that get sub-allocations of /29, /28, /26 to /24 from ISP (LIR's)

>> providing them with connectivity or hosting services. This practise is

>> common and it enables such small enterprises who don't need to become

>> AFRINIC resource members to enjoy internet related services through ISP or

>> hosting providers infrastructure on the continent.

>>

>> I similarly know of hyperscalers who provide compute and storage services

>> across their infrastructure to a wide range of customers and each service

>> comes with some assignment of an integer which is fundamental to provision

>> of the IP related services of (compute, storage, applications) enabled by

>> integer wrapped in the service to enable IP communication. Customers are

>> not paying hyperscalers or hosting providers for an integer but a service.

>>

>> AFRINIC Bylaws Section 3.4) Sections i. and iii. Below talk about *enabling

>> communication to assist in the development of the Internet in Africa and

>> promote responsible management of number resources* and not

>> leasing/brokering.

>>

>>

>> *i. to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet

>> resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system

>> network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the

>> Internet in the African region;*

>>

>>

>> *iii. to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout

>> the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of

>> Internet infrastructures; *

>>

>>

>>> I feel total reliance on network providers/carriers also limits

>>> flexibility

>>>

>>

>> As far as I am concerned, we have had multiple customers who wanted their

>> own managed INR beyond what we as an LIR can sub-allocate as part of the

>> connectivity services they enjoy from us and we encouraged and guided them

>> to seek small blocks from AFRINIC. This turned out to be a much cheaper

>> alternative than going to brokers and folks who lease each IPv4 for 30USD

>> without providing any Internet related service to the customer beyond

>> dashing out IP's with LOA's.

>>

>> AFRINIC FYI, does more than just allocating and managing INR. Read Bylaws

>> section 3.4 in full to understand her complete objectives as an RIR for

>> this region.

>>

>>

>>>

>>> No textbook analogy. IP leasing can allow the enterprise/organizations

>>> certain flexibility in administration. Like having a single contiguous

>>> range to numbers on all their interfaces and infrastructure either locally

>>> and across the cloud, for better administration and scaling of their

>>> network they need. This way all their IPs are unique and contiguous, and

>>> they can number their offices networks, servers, VPN etc. for easy

>>> management.

>>>

>> So Yes, fully (physical)provider independent. Without the physical

>>> connection to provider being involved, that provider will still be there of

>>> course, but the end user is not forced to number their LAN with that

>>> provider's IP addresses.

>>>

>>

>> Ooooh well.... last I checked ... AFRINIC is provider Independent and has

>> alway been.

>>

>> So I encourage you to encourage those enterprises to reach out to

>> AFRINIC. All they need is to become resource members, sign an RSA and

>> justify their needs and they will be served.  AFRINIC manager INR transfers

>> within the region as well.

>>

>>

>>>

>>> On another note, AFRINIC itself would give out such IP addresses as

>>> assignments with the same justifications,  These  provider-independent

>>> address space (PI) has some limitations in the current CPM. The PIs

>>> assignments are also called "leasing", and well.

>>>

>>

>> There is no language in the CPM that indicates that PI assignments are

>> also called *leasing*. Please point me to such a language.

>>

>> However, Section 9.0 talks of temporary assignments of not more than one

>> month in section 9.2 and this is often done by AFRINIC to support Internet

>> related events and capacity building and education activities through

>> various Af* initiatives (AIS, NOG's etc) as per the Bylaws section 3.4 iv.)

>> v.) and vi.).

>>

>> This short term assignment as far I know is done for free and AFRINIC

>> does not charge the temporary requesters any fees.

>>

>>

>>

>>>

>>> AFRINIC as a non profit organisation should not place itself in direct

>>> competition with its members.

>>>

>>

>> Which members is AFRINIC competing with exactly?

>>

>>

>>

>>> Resource owners are restricted from leasing,

>>>

>>

>> There is no such thing as a Resource owner. What there is, is Membership.

>>

>> *Bylaws section 6.1 subsection i.) talks of Membership as below.*

>>

>>

>>

>> 6) *MEMBERSHIP*

>>

>> 6.1) Subject to the other provisions of this Article, membership shall be

>> open to:

>>

>>

>> *i. any Person who is geographically based within, and providing services

>> in the African region, and who is engaged in the use of, or business of

>> providing, open system protocol network services;*

>>

>> So to break down the above for you, the language talks of *engaged in

>> the use of* and not leasing or brokering IPv4's but rather ''*use of*"

>> meaning using the IP  to provide internet related services in the

>> Afrinic region on some network or system infrastructure.

>>

>> while the registry can lease out space as described in the policy,

>>> placing AFRINIC in a very awkward situation.

>>>

>>

>> AFRINIC does not lease, it allocates to LIR's and assigns members who

>> seek PI INR's....

>>

>> CPM Section 5.4.6.2 reads as below and still talks of *use*

>>

>>

>> *5.4.6.2 AFRINIC resources are for AFRINIC service region and any use

>> outside the region should be solely in support of connectivity back to the

>> AFRINIC region*

>>

>>

>> Cheers,

>> Noah

>>

>>

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