<div dir="auto">How about addressing the points I mentioned instead of repeating the same statements over and over again? </div><div dir="auto">Can you please give me a clear example of an RIR who bans IP leasing or is explicitly against it ?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I think you are just refusing to digest REAL facts and repeating the same song due to the lack of valid arguments.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best, </div><div dir="auto"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à 01:08, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Unbelievable what an amount of absurd we have to cope with here
      sometimes. I guess that is s result of total lack of understanding
      of how things work and have always worked.</p>
    <p>If a resource holder has a fair amount of *<b>unused IPs</b>*
      these addresses MUST be returned back to AfriNic or transferred to
      another member who has justification for it, period. There is no
      middle term for that nor philosophical or beautiful words to make
      something different or noble.<br>
      If any organization has to lease IPs in order to work it is
      already loosing because it could be a AfriNic member getting these
      same addresses directly from AfriNic from not a third part at a
      higher price.<br>
    </p>
    <p>IP addresses are meant to build and develop internet ecosystem
      not to stay with an organization which does not use them and or be
      rented to someone else at a higher cost.<br>
      It is also false information that all RIRs allow IP leasing.</p>
    <p>Please improve your basis to discuss certain matters and don't
      spread false information.<br>
    </p></div><div>
    <div>On 08/07/2021 18:53, Mimi dy wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="ltr">
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>
          </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Hi Fernando,<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">First, I find it important to remind you that
            the Internet is ONE. Moreover, the African region will
            immensely benefit from this activity, how? African ISPs/
            network-holders can start leasing out unused IPs, creating a
            whole connectivity ecosystem, which primarily can help them
            generate more income, and more prominently, small scale
            enterprises/ tech start-ups…etc., will also thrive through
            IP leasing instead of dedicating a large portion of their
            capital to pay RIR membership fees. Additionally, the
            organizations that have the capacity to lease IP addresses
            to richer countries (i.e., Australia) will definitely
            generate an important profit that will be used for the
            striving of internet connectivity worldwide. If you do not
            see that as an economic growth incentive and a comparative
            advantage, I suggest you give it a second thought.</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">As a matter of fact, all RIRs allow IP leasing,
            and inter-RIR resources transfer, because there is no harm
            in liberating number resources and allowing them to be
            globally transferrable. It is important to realize that, in
            this day and age, the whole concept of the Internet is
            rooted in openness, freedom and sharing, if you start
            elaborating restrictive laws and regulations, the internet
            will be no different from a communist government, which can
            lead to catastrophic repercussions.<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To sum up, number resources are valuable assets
            and should be used in a strategic and intelligent way, which
            can be beneficial for the whole Internet, while of course
            maintaining its cooperative nature.</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Best,<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mer. 7 juil. 2021 à 23:51,
          Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a
          écrit :<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
          <div>
            <p>There are several points and places that make it cristal
              clear that the idea of IP Leasing is not just something
              absurd in terms of IP usage but also against different
              rules in place. However some keep repeating the words are
              not written in the way "they" would like to read and
              ignoring all that just because that might go against their
              business.</p>
            <p>All that Noah put below makes sense even to a newbie in
              Internet Business so any company who need smaller
              allocations get them from their LIR which provides
              connectivity and that's the main propose these LIRs
              justified the need of these addresses when they were
              request to AfriNic. These business are developing internet
              in Africa by allocating internet resources for the
              purposes of enabling communications which is also provided
              by these same businesses. What communications are enabled
              by a member who has unused resources and is renting it to
              another member - or worst - in many cases to <b>a member
                of another RIR elsewhere</b> - therefore out of the
              region?<br>
            </p>
            <p>What promotion of responsible management of Internet
              resources is being done <b>throughout the African region</b>
              when a member simply rent these resources to someone out
              of the region ? What development and operation of Internet
              infrastructure is being done in Africa ?</p>
            <p>Every unused resource with hold by a member is one chunk
              of less of resources in AfriNic's pool. What is the point
              of exhausting that pool completely and force newcomers to
              pay a higher price for the same resources they could get
              directly from AfriNic if these unused resources simply
              used for renting would have been returned back to AfriNic
              pool ? AfriNic looses newer members and in turn these
              companies become dependent from another company whose
              business is not transporting a single bit throughout the
              African region.</p>
            <p>Isn't all that enough to stop those who blindly keep
              trying to make IP Leasing and usage out of the region
              something normal and that should be accepted by AfriNic ?</p>
            <p>Fernando<br>
            </p>
            <div>On 07/07/2021 13:15, Noah wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr"><br>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 6, 2021
                    at 1:06 AM Anthony Ubah <<a href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com" target="_blank">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">Hi Noah,<br>
                      <br>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Hi Oga Ubah,</div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">What you describe sounds nice if you
                      are one of the established ISPs who are running a
                      top to bottom network. However you can not say the
                      same for smaller enterprises, too small to be an
                      LIR, and unable to run full operations profitably,
                      giving inability to afford the RIR/AFRINIC fees.</div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>RIR membership fees are annual and AFRINIC today
                    has close to 200 resource members across the region
                    both large and small.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>I know a good number of small enterprises across
                    the eastern coast of Africa that get sub-allocations
                    of /29, /28, /26 to /24 from ISP (LIR's) providing
                    them with connectivity or hosting services. This
                    practise is common and it enables such small
                    enterprises who don't need to become AFRINIC
                    resource members to enjoy internet related services
                    through ISP or hosting providers infrastructure on
                    the continent.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>I similarly know of hyperscalers who provide
                    compute and storage services across their
                    infrastructure to a wide range of customers and each
                    service comes with some assignment of an integer
                    which is fundamental to provision of the IP related
                    services of (compute, storage, applications) enabled
                    by integer wrapped in the service to enable IP
                    communication. Customers are not paying hyperscalers
                    or hosting providers for an integer but a service.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p>AFRINIC Bylaws Section 3.4) Sections i. and iii.
                      Below talk about <b>enabling communication to
                        assist in the development of the Internet in
                        Africa and promote responsible management of
                        number resources</b> and not leasing/brokering.</p>
                    <p><br>
                    </p>
                    <p><i>i. to provide the service of <b>allocating
                          and registering Internet resources for the
                          purposes of enabling communications </b>via
                        open system network protocols and to assist in
                        the development and growth of the Internet in
                        the African region;</i></p>
                    <p><i><br>
                      </i></p>
                    <p><i>iii. to promote <b>responsible management of
                          Internet resources</b> throughout the <b>African
                          region</b>, as well as the <b>responsible
                          development and operation of Internet
                          infrastructures; </b></i><span><b><i>  </i> 
                           </b></span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr"> I feel total reliance on network
                      providers/carriers also limits flexibility</div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>As far as I am concerned, we have had multiple
                    customers who wanted their own managed INR beyond
                    what we as an LIR can sub-allocate as part of the
                    connectivity services they enjoy from us and we
                    encouraged and guided them to seek small blocks from
                    AFRINIC. This turned out to be a much cheaper
                    alternative than going to brokers and folks who
                    lease each IPv4 for 30USD without providing any
                    Internet related service to the customer beyond
                    dashing out IP's with LOA's. <br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>AFRINIC FYI, does more than just allocating and
                    managing INR. Read Bylaws section 3.4 in full to
                    understand her complete objectives as an RIR for
                    this region.</div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div><br>
                        No textbook analogy. IP leasing can allow the
                        enterprise/organizations certain flexibility in
                        administration. Like having a single contiguous
                        range to numbers on all their interfaces and
                        infrastructure either locally and across the
                        cloud, for better administration and scaling of
                        their network they need. This way all their IPs
                        are unique and contiguous, and they can number
                        their offices networks, servers, VPN etc. for
                        easy management.</div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>So Yes, fully (physical)provider independent.
                        Without the physical connection to provider
                        being involved, that provider will still be
                        there of course, but the end user is not forced
                        to number their LAN with that provider's IP
                        addresses.<br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Ooooh well.... last I checked ... AFRINIC is
                    provider Independent and has alway been.<br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>So I encourage you to encourage those enterprises
                    to reach out to AFRINIC. All they need is to become
                    resource members, sign an RSA and justify their
                    needs and they will be served.  AFRINIC manager INR
                    transfers within the region as well. </div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div><br>
                        On another note, AFRINIC itself would give out
                        such IP addresses as assignments with the same
                        justifications,  These  provider-independent
                        address space (PI) has some limitations in the
                        current CPM. The PIs assignments are also called
                        "leasing", and well.</div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>There is no language in the CPM that indicates
                    that PI assignments are also called <b>leasing</b>.
                    Please point me to such a language.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>However, Section 9.0 talks of temporary
                    assignments of not more than one month in section
                    9.2 and this is often done by AFRINIC to support
                    Internet related events and capacity building and
                    education activities through various Af* initiatives
                    (AIS, NOG's etc) as per the Bylaws section 3.4 iv.)
                    v.) and vi.). </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>This short term assignment as far I know is done
                    for free and AFRINIC does not charge the temporary
                    requesters any fees.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div> </div>
                      <div>AFRINIC as a non profit organisation should
                        not place itself in direct competition with its
                        members.<br>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Which members is AFRINIC competing with
                    exactly?  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>Resource owners are restricted from leasing,</div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div> </div>
                  <div>There is no such thing as a Resource owner. What
                    there is, is Membership.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <p><b>Bylaws section 6.1 subsection i.) talks of
                      Membership as below.</b></p>
                  <p><b> </b></p>
                  <p>6) <b>MEMBERSHIP</b></p>
                  <p>6.1) Subject to the other provisions of this
                    Article, membership shall be open to:</p>
                  <p><br>
                  </p>
                  <div><i><span>i. any Person who is geographically
                        based within, and<font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <b>providing
                            services in the African region</b></font>,
                        and who is engaged in the </span><span><b><font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)">use of</font></b></span><span><font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)">,</font> or <b><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">business of providing, open
                            system protocol network services;</font></b></span></i></div>
                  <div> </div>
                  <div>So to break down the above for you, the language
                    talks of <i><b>engaged in the<span> </span><span>use
                          of</span></b></i><span> and not leasing or
                      brokering IPv4's but rather ''<b><i>use of</i></b>"
                      meaning using the IP</span><span>  </span><span>to
                      provide internet related services in the Afrinic
                      region on some</span><span> </span><span>network
                      or system infrastructure.</span></div>
                  <div><span><br>
                    </span></div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">
                    <div dir="ltr">
                      <div>while the registry can lease out space as
                        described in the policy, placing AFRINIC in a
                        very awkward situation.<br clear="all">
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>AFRINIC does not lease, it allocates to LIR's and
                    assigns members who seek PI INR's....</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <p>CPM Section <span style="color:rgb(32,90,115)">5.4.6.2</span>
                    reads as below and still talks of <font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)"><b>use</b></font></p>
                  <p><br>
                  </p>
                  <div><i><span>5.4.6.2</span><span> <font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><b>AFRINIC resources are for</b>
                        </font><b><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">AFRINIC service
                            region</font></b> <b>and</b> </span><span><b><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">any </font><font style="color:rgb(255,0,0)">use</font><font style="text-decoration-line:underline;color:rgb(153,0,0)"> </font><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">outside the region should be
                            solely in support of </font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">connectivity</font><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> back to the </font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">AFRINIC region</font></b></span></i></div>
                  <div><span><b><br>
                      </b></span></div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><font face="Helvetica Neue" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue";color:rgb(0,0,0)">Cheers,</font></div>
                  <div><span>Noah</span></div>
                  <div><span><b><br>
                      </b></span></div>
                </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <fieldset></fieldset>
              <pre style="font-family:monospace">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank" style="font-family:monospace">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          RPD mailing list<br>
          <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
          <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>