[rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer Policy

[Joshua J. Onuh]

Hi all,

Reading through all the mails, tbh it makes no sense for we to be arguing
over irrelevant issues when we should be considering the policies at hand.
I don't think everyone needs to know me to consider my points as valid in
any discourse beside the content.
In the past someone raised it here that there is a divide between the
francophone and anglophone countries, I think that is TRUE and not GOOD if
we are to move ahead so please, let's put our differences aside and work
together to achieve a common goal.

Regards

On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 11:18, Noah <noah at neo.co.tz> wrote:


> Ekaterina,

>

> Why does your email below sound like someone else writing.

>

> *./noah*

> neo - network engineering and operations

>

>

> On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:31 PM Ekaterina Kalugina <kay.k.prof at gmail.com>

> wrote:

>

>> Dear all,

>>

>> First of all, I do not think attacking each other would not lead

>> anywhere. Can we please stop focusing on trying to twist each other's words

>> and hurt each other's feelings and focus on the matter at hand instead? In

>> my opinion, there was no malicious intent behind either Fernando's or

>> Lucilla's or Lamiia's words.

>>

>> I also think it is unfair to discard the arguments of all the parties you

>> do not agree with as "echo chambers." Some of us share certain views, some

>> of us don't - that is simply the nature of an argument.

>>

>> In addition, there is nothing wrong with replying to an email addressed

>> to someone else. This is an open forum and everyone is free to reply and

>> comment on everybody else's posts. I've also gotten replies from people who

>> I was not arguing with initially and I did not see a problem with that.

>>

>> An open forum also means that anyone is free to participate from any

>> email address. I, for one, also do not want my official university email to

>> be flooded, so I opted out to create a separate address for my

>> participation in the rpd.

>>

>> Now let us please take a step back and look at the facts of the matter.

>>

>> The first fact is that making changes to the policy during the last call

>> is not prohibited by the CPM. And it is in the spirit of the law to make

>> the necessary changes during the last call.

>>

>> The second fact is that the last call was extended as per the request of

>> the community. Here is one such example:

>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011634.html

>>

>> Thirdly, the fact that the policy addresses "almost all"  concerns does

>> not disqualify it from being on the last call. The policy is moved onto the

>> last call when a rough consensus is achieved. And rough consensus does not

>> imply that everyone must agree. It means that there should be a sense of

>> general agreement as per the determination of the chairs. Which we had.

>>

>>  Then the policy is moved to the last call where it is then edited so

>> that a proper consensus could be achieved. Since this have proved to be

>> tenuous journey, it only makes sense that the chairs have extended the last

>> call to make sure that all of the issues were properly addressed.

>>

>> And this is what we should focus on: let us try to find a compromise on

>> this issue that can satisfy all of us as much as possible. Let us discuss

>> the policy in question, raise all  the concerns that still remain and try

>> to find the best solution for the region

>>

>> Best,

>>

>> Ekaterina

>>

>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 09:28 Daniel Yakmut via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:

>>

>>> I use Gmail, because i don't want to clog my official mailbox with

>>> irrelevances. However, I can't be label suspect.

>>>

>>> If you do not know the person, and is of interest to you then make

>>> effort to reach out to the person. Note, there maybe ghost IDs.

>>> On 19/10/2020 7:58 am, Mark Elkins wrote:

>>>

>>> Mike, I agree with your summary. I'd also add that people who use gmail

>>> addresses also add a little suspicion unless I actually know them.

>>> On 2020/10/19 08:36, Mike Silber wrote:

>>>

>>> Amazing that my mail to “Lamiaa” is answered by “Lucilla” (with a quick

>>> response by “Gabi”).

>>>

>>> This is a response to the list, as I see little point in responding to

>>> an identity whose provenance and identity is still uncertain.

>>>

>>> I relish different opinions. For example - my friend Noah and I disagree

>>> on many things. However:

>>>

>>> - I have met him;

>>> - I have been on calls with him;

>>> - I know what networks he operates;

>>> - I know his technical background and experience.

>>>

>>> So when we disagree, I have to afford him the respect he deserves

>>> because I have data. I either understand his perspective (even though I

>>> think it may be wrong) or at least I understand his motivations.

>>>

>>> Through it all - he has worked to earn the respect of all of us by his

>>> commitment to the community and the process.

>>>

>>> However, with you and your echo chamber and despite the cutesy

>>> introductions when I first raised my concern - I have never met you, never

>>> been on a call with you, don’t know what network you operate or your

>>> technical expertise. I don’t have any inclination of your perspective or

>>> motivation.

>>>

>>> As such, it seems that your (collective) motivation is to manipulate the

>>> process towards a particular objective.

>>>

>>> This is not the first time the mailing list has been manipulated and I

>>> am sure it won’t be the last. Some people I call (or used to call) friends

>>> have used sock puppets to manipulate process and spew hatred.

>>>

>>> I am calling it out here because I think we have a problem that we have

>>> just swept under the rug before - we allow identities without confirmation

>>> to participate.

>>>

>>> For example - ICANN working groups have developed a “statement of

>>> interest” requirement for participation that tries to filter sock puppets

>>> and force disclosure of interest.

>>>

>>> I think that the situation in the PDP has become so toxic that a similar

>>> requirement may be necessary.

>>>

>>> Mike

>>>

>>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 04:58, lucilla fornaro <

>>> lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>

>>>> Dear Mike,

>>>>

>>>> Let me understand your point of view.

>>>> So, agreeing with someone else means belonging to a “puppet echo

>>>> chamber” (which is an insult itself!)?

>>>>

>>>> You talk about respect and objectiveness when you are insinuating the

>>>> false and lacking respect for anyone who has a different opinion from you.

>>>>

>>>> This is not a private talk at a coffee shop, you cannot cut out from

>>>> the conversation people who disagree with you. You are accusing some

>>>> members of pushing a proposal you disagree with and according to you, this

>>>> means we belong to a kind of strange conspiracy gang. If I had a lot of

>>>> free time I may end up thinking you are doing exactly the same by rejecting

>>>> it.

>>>>

>>>> Luckily, this is not a cult, this Afrinic and surprise surprise,

>>>> Afrinic is a welcoming open community where DIFFERENT OPINIONS are not only

>>>> accepted but encouraged.

>>>>

>>>> Members have been consistently asking for more time and once they’ve

>>>> received it they KEPT COMPLAINING because they now want something else. So

>>>> my question is, what game are you playing? Because if there is something

>>>> suspicious here, it comes from you and those who are equally confused about

>>>> what they want. At least, my ideas are explicit.

>>>>

>>>> I think there are enough childish quarrels, if you are really genuinely

>>>> interested in Afrinic it is time to accept that someone may disagree with

>>>> you.

>>>>

>>>> regards,

>>>>

>>>> Lucilla

>>>>

>>>> Il giorno dom 18 ott 2020 alle ore 20:47 Mike Silber <

>>>> silber.mike at gmail.com> ha scritto:

>>>>

>>>>> Lamiaa

>>>>>

>>>>> Thanks for confirming (yet again) to the list members that you and

>>>>> several others seem to serve as an echo chamber for each other and for

>>>>> little other purpose - other than an attempt to manipulate the PDP.

>>>>>

>>>>> Objectively there was nothing offensive or constituting a personal

>>>>> attack in what Fernando said and attempting to amplify that lie is

>>>>> offensive to all of us who engage in robust discussion on this list.

>>>>>

>>>>> As for your opinions on the appeal, frankly they are irrelevant.

>>>>> Hopefully the appeal committee will be objective and not manipulated by

>>>>> your echo chamber.

>>>>>

>>>>> While I appreciate the co-chairs extension of the last call period, as

>>>>> others have pointed out, the extension does not substantively change the

>>>>> decision against which the appeal has been lodged.

>>>>>

>>>>> Mike

>>>>>

>>>>> Sitting back and waiting for the flames from the sock puppet echo

>>>>> chamber

>>>>>

>>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 12:35, Lamiaa Chnayti <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>

>>>>> wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>> Hello Fernando,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> First of all, I would like to report to the chairs your improper

>>>>>> behaviour that consists of personally attacking and offending Lucilla. This

>>>>>> should be taken seriously and shouldn’t go unnoticed so as to maintain a

>>>>>> fair and sensible discussion on the list.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> I would also like to point out that now that the chairs have amended

>>>>>> their decision, the appeal has become invalid.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Please start showing a little respect for what the chairs are doing.

>>>>>> Everything they voluntarily do is for the sake of this community.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Lamiaa

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Le dim. 18 oct. 2020 à 00:20, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>>>>>> a écrit :

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Do not deceive yourself. There is an appeal ongoing before any

>>>>>>> possible ratification.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Fernando

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020, 20:12 lucilla fornaro, <

>>>>>>> lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> No, what I meant is that we’ve been discussing for weeks, the end

>>>>>>>> of the last call has been already announced.

>>>>>>>> Co-chairs shouldn’t make any changes to that decision. The policy

>>>>>>>> shall now move to ratification.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Lucilla

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> ------------------------------

>>>>>>>> *Da:* dc at darwincosta.com <dc at darwincosta.com>

>>>>>>>> *Inviato:* domenica, ottobre 18, 2020 2:49 AM

>>>>>>>> *A:* lucilla fornaro

>>>>>>>> *Cc:* ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE; rpd List

>>>>>>>> *Oggetto:* Re: [rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer

>>>>>>>> Policy

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> On 17 Oct 2020, at 19:36, lucilla fornaro <

>>>>>>>> lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> Dear Co-chair, dear community,

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I disagree with this extension of one week. I don’t see how this

>>>>>>>> further week can do any good to a discussion that has already reached its

>>>>>>>> purpose.

>>>>>>>> It is clear that the community members have had exhaustive time to

>>>>>>>> discuss the policy.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> The end of the last call for this policy has already been declared

>>>>>>>> and we should keep moving forward from that.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> I guess you meant send it back to discussion? I have previously

>>>>>>>> asked the Co-chair to share with the community facts & figures on how this

>>>>>>>> proposal have reached consensus... Until now, we have not seen nothing on

>>>>>>>> this regards...

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Luckily there is an appeal submitted.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Lucilla

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>>> Darwin-.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> ------------------------------

>>>>>>>> *Da:* ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE <oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng>

>>>>>>>> *Inviato:* domenica, ottobre 18, 2020 1:03 AM

>>>>>>>> *A:* rpd List

>>>>>>>> *Oggetto:* [rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer Policy

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Dear colleagues,

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Despite our belief that this policy has covered almost all of the

>>>>>>>> concerns raised especially the major objections, we would like to give the

>>>>>>>> community more time to discern after considering the community's feedback

>>>>>>>> on the consensus declared on the  Resource Transfer Polic.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> We, the co-chairs, have changed our decision and opt to extend the

>>>>>>>> last call for one more week for prudence's sake.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Thank you.

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Co-Chair

>>>>>>>> PDWG

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>> Website <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng>, Weekly Bulletin

>>>>>>>> <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng/index.php/bulletin> UGPortal

>>>>>>>> <http://uilugportal.unilorin.edu.ng/> PGPortal

>>>>>>>> <https://uilpgportal.unilorin.edu.ng/>

>>>>>>>>

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>>>>>>>>

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>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

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>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

>>>>>>>

>>>>>> --

>>>>>> Lamiaa CHNAYTI

>>>>>>

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>>>>>>

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>>>>>

>>>>

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>>>

>>> --

>>>

>>> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa

>>> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496>

>>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

>>>

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