[rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer Policy

[Noah]

Ekaterina,

Why does your email below sound like someone else writing.

*./noah*
neo - network engineering and operations


On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 12:31 PM Ekaterina Kalugina <kay.k.prof at gmail.com>
wrote:


> Dear all,

>

> First of all, I do not think attacking each other would not lead anywhere.

> Can we please stop focusing on trying to twist each other's words and hurt

> each other's feelings and focus on the matter at hand instead? In my

> opinion, there was no malicious intent behind either Fernando's or

> Lucilla's or Lamiia's words.

>

> I also think it is unfair to discard the arguments of all the parties you

> do not agree with as "echo chambers." Some of us share certain views, some

> of us don't - that is simply the nature of an argument.

>

> In addition, there is nothing wrong with replying to an email addressed to

> someone else. This is an open forum and everyone is free to reply and

> comment on everybody else's posts. I've also gotten replies from people who

> I was not arguing with initially and I did not see a problem with that.

>

> An open forum also means that anyone is free to participate from any email

> address. I, for one, also do not want my official university email to be

> flooded, so I opted out to create a separate address for my participation

> in the rpd.

>

> Now let us please take a step back and look at the facts of the matter.

>

> The first fact is that making changes to the policy during the last call

> is not prohibited by the CPM. And it is in the spirit of the law to make

> the necessary changes during the last call.

>

> The second fact is that the last call was extended as per the request of

> the community. Here is one such example:

> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011634.html

>

> Thirdly, the fact that the policy addresses "almost all"  concerns does

> not disqualify it from being on the last call. The policy is moved onto the

> last call when a rough consensus is achieved. And rough consensus does not

> imply that everyone must agree. It means that there should be a sense of

> general agreement as per the determination of the chairs. Which we had.

>

>  Then the policy is moved to the last call where it is then edited so that

> a proper consensus could be achieved. Since this have proved to be tenuous

> journey, it only makes sense that the chairs have extended the last call to

> make sure that all of the issues were properly addressed.

>

> And this is what we should focus on: let us try to find a compromise on

> this issue that can satisfy all of us as much as possible. Let us discuss

> the policy in question, raise all  the concerns that still remain and try

> to find the best solution for the region

>

> Best,

>

> Ekaterina

>

> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, 09:28 Daniel Yakmut via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:

>

>> I use Gmail, because i don't want to clog my official mailbox with

>> irrelevances. However, I can't be label suspect.

>>

>> If you do not know the person, and is of interest to you then make effort

>> to reach out to the person. Note, there maybe ghost IDs.

>> On 19/10/2020 7:58 am, Mark Elkins wrote:

>>

>> Mike, I agree with your summary. I'd also add that people who use gmail

>> addresses also add a little suspicion unless I actually know them.

>> On 2020/10/19 08:36, Mike Silber wrote:

>>

>> Amazing that my mail to “Lamiaa” is answered by “Lucilla” (with a quick

>> response by “Gabi”).

>>

>> This is a response to the list, as I see little point in responding to an

>> identity whose provenance and identity is still uncertain.

>>

>> I relish different opinions. For example - my friend Noah and I disagree

>> on many things. However:

>>

>> - I have met him;

>> - I have been on calls with him;

>> - I know what networks he operates;

>> - I know his technical background and experience.

>>

>> So when we disagree, I have to afford him the respect he deserves because

>> I have data. I either understand his perspective (even though I think it

>> may be wrong) or at least I understand his motivations.

>>

>> Through it all - he has worked to earn the respect of all of us by his

>> commitment to the community and the process.

>>

>> However, with you and your echo chamber and despite the cutesy

>> introductions when I first raised my concern - I have never met you, never

>> been on a call with you, don’t know what network you operate or your

>> technical expertise. I don’t have any inclination of your perspective or

>> motivation.

>>

>> As such, it seems that your (collective) motivation is to manipulate the

>> process towards a particular objective.

>>

>> This is not the first time the mailing list has been manipulated and I am

>> sure it won’t be the last. Some people I call (or used to call) friends

>> have used sock puppets to manipulate process and spew hatred.

>>

>> I am calling it out here because I think we have a problem that we have

>> just swept under the rug before - we allow identities without confirmation

>> to participate.

>>

>> For example - ICANN working groups have developed a “statement of

>> interest” requirement for participation that tries to filter sock puppets

>> and force disclosure of interest.

>>

>> I think that the situation in the PDP has become so toxic that a similar

>> requirement may be necessary.

>>

>> Mike

>>

>> On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at 04:58, lucilla fornaro <

>> lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com> wrote:

>>

>>> Dear Mike,

>>>

>>> Let me understand your point of view.

>>> So, agreeing with someone else means belonging to a “puppet echo

>>> chamber” (which is an insult itself!)?

>>>

>>> You talk about respect and objectiveness when you are insinuating the

>>> false and lacking respect for anyone who has a different opinion from you.

>>>

>>> This is not a private talk at a coffee shop, you cannot cut out from the

>>> conversation people who disagree with you. You are accusing some members of

>>> pushing a proposal you disagree with and according to you, this means we

>>> belong to a kind of strange conspiracy gang. If I had a lot of free time I

>>> may end up thinking you are doing exactly the same by rejecting it.

>>>

>>> Luckily, this is not a cult, this Afrinic and surprise surprise, Afrinic

>>> is a welcoming open community where DIFFERENT OPINIONS are not only

>>> accepted but encouraged.

>>>

>>> Members have been consistently asking for more time and once they’ve

>>> received it they KEPT COMPLAINING because they now want something else. So

>>> my question is, what game are you playing? Because if there is something

>>> suspicious here, it comes from you and those who are equally confused about

>>> what they want. At least, my ideas are explicit.

>>>

>>> I think there are enough childish quarrels, if you are really genuinely

>>> interested in Afrinic it is time to accept that someone may disagree with

>>> you.

>>>

>>> regards,

>>>

>>> Lucilla

>>>

>>> Il giorno dom 18 ott 2020 alle ore 20:47 Mike Silber <

>>> silber.mike at gmail.com> ha scritto:

>>>

>>>> Lamiaa

>>>>

>>>> Thanks for confirming (yet again) to the list members that you and

>>>> several others seem to serve as an echo chamber for each other and for

>>>> little other purpose - other than an attempt to manipulate the PDP.

>>>>

>>>> Objectively there was nothing offensive or constituting a personal

>>>> attack in what Fernando said and attempting to amplify that lie is

>>>> offensive to all of us who engage in robust discussion on this list.

>>>>

>>>> As for your opinions on the appeal, frankly they are irrelevant.

>>>> Hopefully the appeal committee will be objective and not manipulated by

>>>> your echo chamber.

>>>>

>>>> While I appreciate the co-chairs extension of the last call period, as

>>>> others have pointed out, the extension does not substantively change the

>>>> decision against which the appeal has been lodged.

>>>>

>>>> Mike

>>>>

>>>> Sitting back and waiting for the flames from the sock puppet echo

>>>> chamber

>>>>

>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 12:35, Lamiaa Chnayti <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>

>>>> wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> Hello Fernando,

>>>>>

>>>>> First of all, I would like to report to the chairs your improper

>>>>> behaviour that consists of personally attacking and offending Lucilla. This

>>>>> should be taken seriously and shouldn’t go unnoticed so as to maintain a

>>>>> fair and sensible discussion on the list.

>>>>>

>>>>> I would also like to point out that now that the chairs have amended

>>>>> their decision, the appeal has become invalid.

>>>>>

>>>>> Please start showing a little respect for what the chairs are doing.

>>>>> Everything they voluntarily do is for the sake of this community.

>>>>>

>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>

>>>>> Lamiaa

>>>>>

>>>>> Le dim. 18 oct. 2020 à 00:20, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>>>>> a écrit :

>>>>>

>>>>>> Do not deceive yourself. There is an appeal ongoing before any

>>>>>> possible ratification.

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Fernando

>>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>> On Sat, 17 Oct 2020, 20:12 lucilla fornaro, <

>>>>>> lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> No, what I meant is that we’ve been discussing for weeks, the end of

>>>>>>> the last call has been already announced.

>>>>>>> Co-chairs shouldn’t make any changes to that decision. The policy

>>>>>>> shall now move to ratification.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Lucilla

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> ------------------------------

>>>>>>> *Da:* dc at darwincosta.com <dc at darwincosta.com>

>>>>>>> *Inviato:* domenica, ottobre 18, 2020 2:49 AM

>>>>>>> *A:* lucilla fornaro

>>>>>>> *Cc:* ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE; rpd List

>>>>>>> *Oggetto:* Re: [rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer

>>>>>>> Policy

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> On 17 Oct 2020, at 19:36, lucilla fornaro <

>>>>>>> lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com> wrote:

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>> Dear Co-chair, dear community,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I disagree with this extension of one week. I don’t see how this

>>>>>>> further week can do any good to a discussion that has already reached its

>>>>>>> purpose.

>>>>>>> It is clear that the community members have had exhaustive time to

>>>>>>> discuss the policy.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> The end of the last call for this policy has already been declared

>>>>>>> and we should keep moving forward from that.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> I guess you meant send it back to discussion? I have previously

>>>>>>> asked the Co-chair to share with the community facts & figures on how this

>>>>>>> proposal have reached consensus... Until now, we have not seen nothing on

>>>>>>> this regards...

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Luckily there is an appeal submitted.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Lucilla

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Regards,

>>>>>>> Darwin-.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> ------------------------------

>>>>>>> *Da:* ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE <oloyede.aa at unilorin.edu.ng>

>>>>>>> *Inviato:* domenica, ottobre 18, 2020 1:03 AM

>>>>>>> *A:* rpd List

>>>>>>> *Oggetto:* [rpd] Reversal of Consensus on Resource Transfer Policy

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Dear colleagues,

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Despite our belief that this policy has covered almost all of the

>>>>>>> concerns raised especially the major objections, we would like to give the

>>>>>>> community more time to discern after considering the community's feedback

>>>>>>> on the consensus declared on the  Resource Transfer Polic.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> We, the co-chairs, have changed our decision and opt to extend the

>>>>>>> last call for one more week for prudence's sake.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Thank you.

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Co-Chair

>>>>>>> PDWG

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> Website <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng>, Weekly Bulletin

>>>>>>> <http://www.unilorin.edu.ng/index.php/bulletin> UGPortal

>>>>>>> <http://uilugportal.unilorin.edu.ng/> PGPortal

>>>>>>> <https://uilpgportal.unilorin.edu.ng/>

>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> _______________________________________________

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>>>>>>>

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>>>>>>>

>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>> RPD mailing list

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>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

>>>>>>

>>>>> --

>>>>> Lamiaa CHNAYTI

>>>>>

>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>> RPD mailing list

>>>>> RPD at afrinic.net

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>>>>>

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>>>>

>>>

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>>

>> --

>>

>> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa

>> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.826010496 <+27826010496>

>> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za

>>

>> [image: Posix Systems][image: VCARD for MJ Elkins]

>>

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