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[rpd] End of Last call
Ibeanusi Elvis
ibeanusielvis at gmail.com
Mon Oct 12 22:44:46 UTC 2020
Dear Community,
I concur with what Lucilla said “this is a community, not a hierarchical organisation”. Thus, the opinions of everyone, both arguments for and against, those of the oldies and the newbies are all welcomed. This contributive state of opinions sees to the growth of the AFRINIC community and the African region.
Dear Jordi, indeed everyone expects the law to have a single interpretation but that does mean that people will not misinterpret the law; like Ekaterina pointed out “this is reality of policy making”. Policy makers make policies while lawyers interpret and sometime misinterpret it to back up and suit their argument or case. Additionally, no changes were made to the proposals during the meeting cause in accordance with the CPM Section 3.4.2 “No change can be made to the draft policy within one week of the meeting”. So that statement is vehemently wrong. Nonetheless, editorial changes are welcomed during the last call period. Also, nowhere in the text disapproves or disagrees with editorial changes.
Best
ELVIS
> On Oct 13, 2020, at 02:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:
>
> I don’t agree. Lawyers not interpret the law. If the law has different possible interpretations, it is broken.
>
> Let me ask the question again:
>
> If we can change proposals during the meeting and during the last call, without even publishing them during the discussion, why we need the different version of a proposal before the meeting?
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
>
>
> El 12/10/20 15:11, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <kay.k.prof at gmail.com <mailto:kay.k.prof at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Dear community,
>
> Dear Noah, what do you think would happen when the expansion of the internet in the region would exhaust the AFRINIC pool before an inter RIR policy is passed? What would happen when the supply cannot adequately meet the demand? How many business would shut down? How many new enterprises won't be able to open? How many people will be devoid of an opportunity of remote education and work, that became the status quo because of the pandemic? How do you think all this would impact the economy of the region? How would that affect the African communities that are already struggling?
> If you have stopped for a moment to ask yourself these questions you would not feel as blind as you do.
> The apocalypse is already happening. Whether you choose to see it like this or not is irrelevant to millions of people who lost their lives and jobs because of covid. We cannot stop this from happening.
> But we CAN make sure that the African communities will have enough resources to live through these tough times with minimal impact. And this, in my view, is precisely what this policy is seeking to accomplish.
>
> Dear Jordi,
> If the laws were as objective as you say we would not be in the need of lawyers to interpret them. No matter how clear and straightforward the wording is, it can and will be interpreted and misinterpreted. This is the reality of policy making.
>
> However, let us look at the wording as objectively as we can. The article 3.4.2 states that "No change can be made to a draft policy within one week of the meeting." Then it goes on to clarify that "this is so that a stable version of the draft policy can be considered at a meeting." the fact is that the first statement only means that no change can occur one week BEFORE the meeting, and the second statement clarifies the reasoning.
> As Lucilla pointed out - nowhere in the text is states that the policy is not allowed to underdo editorial changes after the meeting. This would be the most objective possible interpretation of this document.
> Best,
> Ekaterina
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 10 Oct 2020, 02:21 lucilla fornaro <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Dear Ekaterina, dear community,
>>
>> The main disagreement seems to be section 3.4.3 on the Last Call, even if it does not openly cover the topic of "making change" during the last call, it does not forbid it either. This means that no violations have occurred. As Ekaterina said, the PDP is administered by the CPM, and not by the decisions of the previous co-chairs.
>>
>> As for Jordi's argument, I believe that it may be useful in certain circumstances to take as an example the other RIRs, in this specific case, the only thing that matters is how we can interpret the CPM for the interest of the AFRINIC community.
>>
>> Mark said: "People should also take into account the work Jordi has done in all of these registries regarding policy proposals both present and past (including AFRINIC). I believe he has a level of experience second to none."
>> Again, this is not a competition on who joined the community first. I am sure Jordi contributed a lot to the community growth with his presence, but this is a community, not a hierarchical organization where the "oldest MEMBER" takes or direct the decisions. It is a process where everyone can contribute.
>>
>> regards,
>>
>> Lucilla
>>
>> Il giorno ven 9 ott 2020 alle ore 23:27 Ekaterina Kalugina <kay.k.prof at gmail.com <mailto:kay.k.prof at gmail.com>> ha scritto:
>>> Dear Jordi, dear community,
>>>
>>> First of all, it is incredibly rude and disrespectful to dismiss the arguments you do not agree with as 'useless noise'. Whether you choose to reply or not is fully up to your discretion. Regardless, you can find my comments below in line.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020, 14:14 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>>> Let’s be logic and rational: I also mention the AFRINIC case as well!
>>>>
>>>> 1. FACT 1: We have a sentence that requires a stable version 1 week before the meeting. Nothing in the remaining text changes that. So, the PDP position is still based on that sentence.
>>>
>>> Yes, there is a sentence that requires a stable version one week before the meeting so that it can be discussed. However, nowhere in the text is states that the policy is cannot be changed after the meeting.
>>> Whatever you think the position of the PDP is solely your subjective interpretation.
>>>> 1.
>>>> 2. FACT 2: Previous co-chairs allowed *in the meeting, during the proposal presentation* editorial adjustments (rewording, grammar, typos), *only* if those adjustments didn’t change the proposal interpretation. I’ve been several times, we got proposals that had changes much smaller than the actual ones, and they needed to wait for a new version and a new meeting 6 months afterwards.
>>>
>>> As far as I understand (and please do correct me if I'm wrong), the PDP is governed by the CPM and not by the decisions is the previous co-chairs. Therefore, I fail to see how this argument is in any way relevant
>>>
>>>> 1.
>>>> 2. FACT 3: If *after* the proposal is presented, we allow changes “to declare consensus”, is not that the same as when we have a new version after a meeting and the proposal need to wait for a new meeting?
>>>
>>> Again I fail to see this as a counter argument. The authors has made the necessary changes so that consensus can be achieved. There is no new version.
>>>> 1.
>>>> 2. FACT 4: If we allow 3 above, then *all the proposals* should have the same chances of allowing adjustments, otherwise we are having a different treatment among different proposals and this is against the full purpose of the PDP.
>>>
>>> Again, this is not a valid argument because all the other proposals did not achieve rough consensus during the PPM.
>>>> 1.
>>>> 2. FACT 5: I’m convinced that the chairs acted in good faith, but that doesn’t excuse errors in the interpretation of the PDP, including the lack of a formal stable version available during all the last call.
>>>
>>> You keep talking about errors made by the co-chairs, yet the only errors I see are the ones within your judgment. I am not going to repeat my arguments stated in my last email. I will only say that technically no violations of the PDP occurred.
>>> If anyone thinks otherwise you must make a good case specifying which sections were violated and how. As per my last email, the section 3.4.3 was NOT violated.
>>> In addition, nowhere in the CPM it is stated that the chairs are obliged to post the stable version for the last call. Of course it is important to do so, however it cannot be considered a violation of the CPM.
>>>> 1.
>>>> 2. FACT 6: Anyone in disagreement of the yesterday chairs decision has 2 weeks to appeal the decision. There is no discussion on that. The 2 weeks timing re-starts after *every* chairs decision. The appeal could have been submitted in September, but it can be submitted also now, because the last-call discussion proved that there is no continued consensus (which is the meaning of the last-call).
>>>
>>> Okay, then you are free to make such an appeal. Just make sure to do so in a timely manner.
>>>> 1.
>>>> 2. FACT 7: The board can *only* ratify a proposal if the PDP has been followed. If the board has any doubts on any nit on the process, they can return the proposal to the PDWG for continuing the discussion.
>>>
>>> Like you said, this is up to the board to decide.
>>>> 1.
>>>> 2. FACT 8: Instead of making a mistake and having *all this discussion*, in case of doubt, we should follow the interpretation done during many years, because it is the actual practice, and ask the board to call for a new meeting in 2-3 months. I’m convinced that it can be much more efficient and not create troubles.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The argument of "we have always done it before" is a very dangerous one. It has been used by most nazis, racists, and mysoginists throughout history.
>>>
>>> The times are changing, and thanks to COVID they are changing at an unprecedented speed. Therefore, the way we conduct the PDP and follow the CPM must change accordingly. In fact, Jordi, it is strange that this has to be explained to such an intelligent person like yourself.
>>>
>>> That is all I have to say for now.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Ekaterina
>>>> I think the chairs should take a decision if they still believe that they did all right (remembering that a stable version was not available during all the last call), or if it better to extend or cancel the last call and ask the board for a focused new meeting just to resolve this proposal (it can be for others as well, I will not object to that, or even one each month from now on). Otherwise, anyone from the community can go for an appeal and/or the board should make sure if the process has been followed.
>>>>
>>>> I’m not going to reply anymore to this, it is starting to be useless noise and not helping anyone.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jordi
>>>>
>>>> @jordipalet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> El 9/10/20 13:39, "Ekaterina Kalugina" <kay.k.prof at gmail.com <mailto:kay.k.prof at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>>>
>>>> Dear community,
>>>>
>>>> It has been really disconcerting reading the last night's discussion. The amount of personal attacks and passive aggressive statements is making the discussion completely futile. The road of pointing fingers leads nowhere. So let us please stop this and focus on the facts.
>>>>
>>>> And the facts are that there seems to be a single section of the CPM that is causing most of the controversy. Namely is it the section 3.4.3 on the Last Call. From what I can see one camp is arguing that no changes can be made during the last call. While the other camp is arguing that it is not forbidden.
>>>>
>>>> This is the problem with language - it always leaves room for interpretation. Therefore, different people reading this section would interpret it differently.
>>>>
>>>> But the fact is that NO violations took place. Yes, it is true that the section does not explicitly talk about making changes during the last call. However, it does not prohibit us from doing so.
>>>>
>>>> As for Jordi's argument that this is not how it's interpreted in the other RIRs - it is irrelevant. The only thing that matters right now is how we can best interpret the CPM for the benefit of the AFRINIC community.
>>>>
>>>> Some of you with different understanding of the CPM may disagree. And it's okay. It seems like the way things are now, achieving any form of agreement is impossible. The only thing that is the possible is to follow the CPM in the way that benefits the community. And it has been clearly stated many times that having a resource transfer policy as soon as possible IS for the benefit of the community. It is also in the benefit of the community that such policy shall be fully compatible with other RIRs. Therefore, it is for the benefit of the community and the region that the necessary changes are made during the last call.
>>>>
>>>> And again for those in the back, the CPM does NOT prohibit changes during the last call. Therefore, technically speaking no violations have occurred.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I would like to point out that the CPM is there to SERVE the best interests community. It really pains me to see how many of you put the wording of the rules above the interests of the people these rules are meant to represent.
>>>>
>>>> The fact is that many will suffer if this policy is not passed in a timely manner. And i firmly believe that it is our duty to prevent this from happening in any way we can.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Ekaterina
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 9 Oct 2020, 11:07 lucilla fornaro <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Mirriam,
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a competition on who joined the community first?
>>>>> I keep reading insults and arguments that NOTHING have to do with this policy and the end of the last call. In an open and inclusive community like Afrinic it is normal to have newbies. Most of the people here have professional experience in some related fields, and their contribution should be welcomed and appreciated, that's how a community grows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding the more serious matter, Co-chairs followed the procedure performing their administrative function within the scope of the CPM, and those who disagree with it did not offer a solution to get the community out of this standoff.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, when situations like this happen, the only way is to follow the procedure and direction of co-chairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Lucilla
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Il giorno ven 9 ott 2020 alle ore 06:03 Mirriam via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> ha scritto:
>>>>>> Hi Pascal,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Long time since Kampala last year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to add that we have always had newbies who join the rpd list and become part of the pdwg , learn and contribute to discussions and I was one of them since back in 2015.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have also had newbies like Hilario who appears, contributes like the world is ending and then disappear from the face of rpd.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We have also had newbies who behave like paid up mercenaries. But we welcome newbies of course and some of us are learning and contributing one day at a time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think what others are saying is that, newbies must also take time and learn rather than jumping to conclusion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am a woman and I have never been intimidated by anyone here or even during my first ever AIS meeting in Kampala, I was happy to meet people, learn and socialize with all and believe me I learned a lot from seniors that today I am able to contribute my 2 cents once in a while.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Mirriam
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thursday, October 8, 2020, 11:17:37 PM GMT+3, Paschal Ochang <pascosoft at gmail.com <mailto:pascosoft at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think it will be right to make some derogatory remarks with respect to participant's timeline of entry into the discussions. Rather, we should look at the content of discussions and contributions which in this case is very positive. We as a community encourage active participation to bring the best out of Policy development outcomes. A few years ago this platform wasn't that active but the amount of recent comments and participation shows that there is a move in the positive direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The so called newbies have been giving intelligent contributions therefore telling them to go and read committees archives does not necessarily dictate that they are not well schooled or knowledgeable to engage in the PDP process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thursday, October 8, 2020, Arnaud AMELINA <amelnaud at gmail.com <mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> +1. Let not waste our valuable time. No need to also try to understand why these people are so afraid of appeal. These newbies should read carefully the PDP and consult the appeal committee's archives to educate themselves https://afrinic.net/policy/ appeal-committee/appeal-2018- 01-02#details <https://afrinic.net/policy/appeal-committee/appeal-2018-01-02#details>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arnaud
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le jeu. 8 oct. 2020 à 14:04, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>>>>>>>> Gaby please read the PDP correctly and do not confuse people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The section 3.5.1 of the CPM says "disagrees with the actions taken by the Chair(s)" not just with declarations made during the PPM. The Chairs could have changed their decision meanwhile but unfortunately they haven't done. They have just decided to keep it and it is "a decision" which by the CPM bound to appeal.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fernando
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 08/10/2020 10:49, Gaby Giner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear community,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I agree with Lucilla but only wish to add 1 point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think everyone has overlooked one huge matter.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is true that by section 3.5(1) of the CPM “A person who disagrees with the actions taken by the Chair(s) shall discuss the matter with the PDWG Chair(s) or with the PDWG”.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> However, I wish to remind everyone that by section 3.5(2) of the CPM, “The appeal must be submitted within two weeks of the public knowledge of the decision”.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Applying this into the current facts, the Chair has publicly announced its decision on 17th September 2020 through the online PPM, whereas, the disagreement/appeal is only made on 2nd October 2020 onward, which is factually beyond the 14 days period to appeal.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Therefore, the disagreements/appeal made in this email thread/mailing list must be deemed invalid and be disregarded.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gaby
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 9:05 PM lucilla fornaro, <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail. com <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Sami, dear all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Most of the arguments supporting the policy were not mere "opinions".
>>>>>>>>>> A quick reminder, the policy reached a rough consensus during the PPM and went to the last call for some editorial changes. The authors, Taiwo and Anthony, proved to be remarkably active to manage minor issues and solicitudes from the community. The resource transfer policy aims to build a stable and efficient resources management system for the Afrinic service region.
>>>>>>>>>> The overall discussion has been full of controversies undermining the work of the co-chairs, an unfair behavior in my opinion. Also, the arguments against the policy have been strongly taken apart.
>>>>>>>>>> We have been debating this policy for weeks, it is now time to move it to the board for ratification.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lucilla
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Il giorno gio 8 ott 2020 alle ore 21:09 Sami Ait Ali Oulahcen via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> ha scritto:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I can't see how the "Resource Transfer Policy" could have reached consensus.
>>>>>>>>>>> I think the co-chairs' prerogative is to declare consensus on policies,
>>>>>>>>>>> not general opinions. And "we need an inter-RIR transfer policy" is a
>>>>>>>>>>> general opinion, not a policy.
>>>>>>>>>>> The policy in question still had objections (non-editorial) before last
>>>>>>>>>>> call. And it received significant changes during the last call period
>>>>>>>>>>> (it is not what last call is meant for).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not that I have any interest in the policy itself being ratified or not.
>>>>>>>>>>> It shouldn't be done this way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Just my 2c.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Sami
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/8/20 12:30 AM, Moses Serugo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > Hello PDWG members,
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Following the last online PPM held on 16^th -17^th September 2020. Last
>>>>>>>>>>> > call was announced on 21^st September 2020 for the following policy
>>>>>>>>>>> > proposals.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > * Board Prerogatives on the PDP
>>>>>>>>>>> > * Resource Transfer Policy
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > This is to further announce that the last call period for the above
>>>>>>>>>>> > proposals has ended, based on feedback received from the community and
>>>>>>>>>>> > the editorial changes made by authors to address community concerns, the
>>>>>>>>>>> > consensus decision from AFRINIC32 is still maintained.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Co-Chairs will now send a report to the Board recommending ratification
>>>>>>>>>>> > of the two above proposals in line with CPM 3.0.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Co-Chairs
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > ______________________________ _________________
>>>>>>>>>>> > RPD mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/ mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>>>>>>>>>> RPD mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>>>>>>>> RPD mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/ mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>>>>>>>> ______________________________ _________________
>>>>>>>> RPD mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>> Paschal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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