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[rpd] Abuse Contact Policy
Fernando Frediani
fhfrediani at gmail.com
Sun Sep 20 22:41:42 UTC 2020
On 19/09/2020 13:19, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:
>
> <clip>
>
> How is it in the scope of AFRINIC to decide how I manage my abuse
> mailbox? If I want to reply only to a specific subject line of my
> abuse box, it is entirely in my right to do. Even if I don't want to
> reply at the abuse mailbox at all, that is my right to do so and if I
> think no action in my network would be considered abuse (although
> unlikely), but it is still from the internet community point of view,
> entirely in my right to do so. You might choose to block me as a
> network, but that is also your right.
> The reason internet is called INTER-NET is because of its
> decentralized nature, you have to play nice for others to play with
> you, but this community never forces anyone to play nice, it is not in
> the scope of AFRINIC to decide how members reply to their abuse
> mailbox, so if 8.3,8.4, 8.5 and 8.6 are deleted in its entirety, I
> might consider supporting it. Also Jordi, I feel you always have this
> central management type of thinking, and that is so not internet.
It is not in the scope of any RIR how anyone manage people's mailboxes.
Nobody exists alone in the Internet. If an organization hypothetically
doesn't care at all and refuses to respond to abuse emails it probably
should re-think its existence in the Internet business.
The Internet is what is among many reasons because of the cooperation
among its organizations, and there are certain rules that are agreed
cooperatively and must be observed by everyone willing remain on it,
otherwise it may in many cases cause serious damage to those willing to
operate in serious manner and keep it a healthy place to most people who
depend on it.
This forum is about setting rules on how registration information about
resources are kept and it may be of the wish of the community to refuse
keep registration for those who repetitively abuse of their individual
rights.
Fernando
> Regards,
>
> Lamiaa
>
> Le ven. 18 sept. 2020 à 09:23, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>
> Hi Lamiaa,
>
> I don’t agree. Internet doesn't depend on any jurisdiction; abuse
> is about what I (the victim operator) consider abuse. The RFC is
> clear about that, in short “Inappropriate public behaviour” (is a
> mailbox so to be able to contact in case there is a possible
> inappropriate behaviour in the public Internet). If you want a
> clearer definition, abuse is **anything** that I don’t want to
> accept in my network because is in any way damaging it.
>
> If I don’t want to accept a DoS, or spam, or phising, DMCA, or
> whatever, this is abuse **for me**. I’ve the right to tell you
> because that abuse is coming from your network. If you believe
> that is not abuse (and here is your jurisdiction in some cases, in
> other just doesn’t exist, but it may be also your “business”
> decision – like operators that don’t care if their customers do
> spam or intrusion attempts), you’ve the right to tell me “sorry,
> this is not abuse for us”, and then I’ve the right to decide if I
> should filter your network based on your response.
>
> Not having an abuse contact, means that I’m not able to contact
> you, so we can’t talk, we can’t investigate or agree if it is an
> abuse or not, so you (the offender operator) don’t have the chance
> to decide about it! Is bad for you, is bad for me. In those cases,
> my best choice is to filter you. This create problems for your
> customers and my customers.
>
> We can’t depend on jurisdictions, because then the policy will
> need to consider inter-relations among every possible “pairs” of
> country worlds, and we will need to update the policy based on any
> jurisdiction change. The policy is not about that, is about having
> a valid responsible contact, not about deciding what is an abuse,
> which is among the two parties.
>
> Tell me what is different from AFRINIC than the rest of the world,
> because none of the RIRs have defined abuse in their policies. I
> even don’t recall that having appeared in the discussions!
>
> If you want, I’m happy to change the title of the proposal to
> “supposed abuse contact”, that may be clearing your point?
>
> Again, this is not about defining what is abuse, this is among the
> parties. It is about making sure that there is a valid responsible
> contact in case of anyone needs to report what he considers an
> abuse. AFRINIC will not punish anyone that believes that his
> customer is not doing an abuse because in his country is not an abuse.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> El 18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Hello Jordi,
>
> RFC2142 only defines a tiny portion of the network abuse. In real
> world operation, abuse consists of a much boarder range :
> DMCA(copy rights) claims, unsolicited emails , phishing websites
> , trade mark disputes etc.
>
> All those are legal issues that vary vastly across different
> juridictions in which no one but each of the juridiction’s judges
> can decide if it is an abuse or an illegal activity. Claiming that
> RFC2142 defines not even 1% of real world abuse is laughable.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lamiaa
>
> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>
> Hi Lamiaa,
>
> I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
> enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.
>
> Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
> because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
> contacts in place.
>
> If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
> accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
> unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
> around.
>
> Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
> is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
> it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
> is different and need a definition?
>
> How you define it in the networks that you operate?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Hello,
>
> I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
> like to add to it that :
>
> Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.
>
> Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
> abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
> operation in a different jurisdiction.
>
> Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
> Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
> entirely up to the member to define what they think is
> acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
> it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
> “abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
> identify what is considered an abuse.
>
> Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR operation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lamiaa
>
> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>
> Hi Lucilla,
>
> Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
> networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
> networks you know that **anything** which is a
> non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.
>
> If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
> networks, etc., all those are abuse.
>
> What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
> everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
> is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
> are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
> do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
> other regions of the world).
>
> Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
> more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
> means that you have more chances to resolve it in goodfaith.
>
> One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
> accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
> contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.
>
> Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
> kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
> implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
> now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
> meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
> any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
> well in the other regions).
>
> You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
> Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
> spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).
>
> Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
> abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
> penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
> contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.
>
> First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
> description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
> to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
> discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
> Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
> different ways.
>
> Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
> and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
> Afrinic’s purpose.
>
> I, therefore, oppose this policy.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lucilla
>
> _______________________________________________ RPD
> mailing list RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
> be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
> and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information,
> even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
> you are not the intended recipient be aware that any
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
> of this information, even if partially, including attached
> files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
> criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender
> to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
> **********************************************
>
> IPv4 is over
>
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>
> The IPv6 Company
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
> for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
> further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
> if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
> and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
> if partially, including attached files, is strictly
> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
> reply to the original sender to inform about this
> communication and delete it.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> RPD mailing list
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>
> Hi Lamiaa,
>
> I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
> enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.
>
> Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
> because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
> contacts in place.
>
> If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
> accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
> unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
> around.
>
> Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
> is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
> it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
> is different and need a definition?
>
> How you define it in the networks that you operate?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Hello,
>
> I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
> like to add to it that :
>
> Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.
>
> Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
> abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
> operation in a different jurisdiction.
>
> Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
> Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
> entirely up to the member to define what they think is
> acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
> it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
> “abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
> identify what is considered an abuse.
>
> Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR operation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Lamiaa
>
> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>
> Hi Lucilla,
>
> Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
> networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
> networks you know that **anything** which is a
> non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.
>
> If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
> networks, etc., all those are abuse.
>
> What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
> everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
> is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
> are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
> do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
> other regions of the world).
>
> Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
> more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
> means that you have more chances to resolve it in goodfaith.
>
> One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
> accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
> contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.
>
> Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
> kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
> implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
> now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
> meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
> any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
> well in the other regions).
>
> You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
> Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
> spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).
>
> Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
> abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
> penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
> contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
> El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.
>
> First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
> description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
> to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
> discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
> Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
> different ways.
>
> Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
> and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
> Afrinic’s purpose.
>
> I, therefore, oppose this policy.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Lucilla
>
> _______________________________________________ RPD
> mailing list RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
> be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
> and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information,
> even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
> you are not the intended recipient be aware that any
> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
> of this information, even if partially, including attached
> files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
> criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender
> to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
> **********************************************
>
>
> IPv4 is over
>
>
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>
>
> The IPv6 Company
>
>
>
>
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
> for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
> further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
> if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
> and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
> if partially, including attached files, is strictly
> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
> reply to the original sender to inform about this
> communication and delete it.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> RPD mailing list
>
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
> --
>
> Lamiaa CHNAYTI
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be
> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
> of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
> criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
> of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
> is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
> you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
> communication and delete it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
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