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On 19/09/2020 13:19, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:<br>
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<pre style="margin:0cm 19.5pt 0.0001pt 0cm;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="color:rgb(21,21,21)" lang="EN-US"><font face="arial, sans-serif">How is it in the scope of AFRINIC to decide how I manage my abuse mailbox? If I want to reply only to a specific subject line of my abuse box, it is entirely in my right to do. Even if I don't want to reply at the abuse mailbox at all, that is my right to do so and if I think no action in my network would be considered abuse (although unlikely), but it is still from the internet community point of view, entirely in my right to do so. You might choose to block me as a network, but that is also your right. </font></span></pre>
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<pre style="margin:0cm 19.5pt 0.0001pt 0cm;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="color:rgb(21,21,21)" lang="EN-US"><font face="arial, sans-serif">The reason internet is called INTER-NET is because of its decentralized nature, you have to play nice for others to play with you, but this community never forces anyone to play nice, it is not in the scope of AFRINIC to decide how members reply to their abuse mailbox, so if 8.3,8.4, 8.5 and 8.6 are deleted in its entirety, I might consider supporting it. Also Jordi, I feel you always have this central management type of thinking, and that is so not internet.</font></span></pre>
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<br>
<p>It is not in the scope of any RIR how anyone manage people's
mailboxes.<br>
Nobody exists alone in the Internet. If an organization
hypothetically doesn't care at all and refuses to respond to abuse
emails it probably should re-think its existence in the Internet
business.</p>
<p>The Internet is what is among many reasons because of the
cooperation among its organizations, and there are certain rules
that are agreed cooperatively and must be observed by everyone
willing remain on it, otherwise it may in many cases cause serious
damage to those willing to operate in serious manner and keep it a
healthy place to most people who depend on it.<br>
</p>
<p>This forum is about setting rules on how registration information
about resources are kept and it may be of the wish of the
community to refuse keep registration for those who repetitively
abuse of their individual rights.</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
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<pre style="margin:0cm 19.5pt 0.0001pt 0cm;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="color:rgb(21,21,21)" lang="EN-US"><font face="arial, sans-serif">Regards,</font></span></pre>
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<pre style="margin:0cm 19.5pt 0.0001pt 0cm;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="color:rgb(21,21,21)" lang="EN-US"><font style="" face="arial, sans-serif">Lamiaa</font></span></pre>
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<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le ven. 18 sept. 2020 à 09:23,
JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> a écrit :<br>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Hi Lamiaa,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">I don’t agree. Internet doesn't depend on
any jurisdiction; abuse is about what I (the victim
operator) consider abuse. The RFC is clear about that,
in short “Inappropriate public behaviour” (is a
mailbox so to be able to contact in case there is a
possible inappropriate behaviour in the public
Internet). If you want a clearer definition, abuse is
*<b>anything</b>* that I don’t want to accept in my
network because is in any way damaging it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">If I don’t want to accept a DoS, or spam,
or phising, DMCA, or whatever, this is abuse *<b>for
me</b>*. I’ve the right to tell you because that
abuse is coming from your network. If you believe that
is not abuse (and here is your jurisdiction in some
cases, in other just doesn’t exist, but it may be also
your “business” decision – like operators that don’t
care if their customers do spam or intrusion
attempts), you’ve the right to tell me “sorry, this is
not abuse for us”, and then I’ve the right to decide
if I should filter your network based on your
response.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Not having an abuse contact, means that
I’m not able to contact you, so we can’t talk, we
can’t investigate or agree if it is an abuse or not,
so you (the offender operator) don’t have the chance
to decide about it! Is bad for you, is bad for me. In
those cases, my best choice is to filter you. This
create problems for your customers and my customers.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">We can’t depend on jurisdictions, because
then the policy will need to consider inter-relations
among every possible “pairs” of country worlds, and we
will need to update the policy based on any
jurisdiction change. The policy is not about that, is
about having a valid responsible contact, not about
deciding what is an abuse, which is among the two
parties.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US">Tell me what is different from AFRINIC
than the rest of the world, because none of the RIRs
have defined abuse in their policies. I even don’t
recall that having appeared in the discussions!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">If
you want, I’m happy to change the title of the
proposal to “supposed abuse contact”, that may be
clearing your point?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Again,
this is not about defining what is abuse, this is
among the parties. It is about making sure that
there is a valid responsible contact in case of
anyone needs to report what he considers an abuse.
AFRINIC will not punish anyone that believes that
his customer is not doing an abuse because in his
country is not an abuse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12pt"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El
18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Hello
Jordi,</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">RFC2142
only defines a tiny portion of the network abuse. In
real world operation, abuse consists of a much
boarder range : DMCA(copy rights) claims,
unsolicited emails , phishing websites , trade mark
disputes etc. </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">All
those are legal issues that vary vastly across
different juridictions in which no one but each of
the juridiction’s judges can decide if it is an
abuse or an illegal activity. Claiming that RFC2142
defines not even 1% of real world abuse is
laughable.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Regards,</p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Lamiaa</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
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<div style="border:1pt none black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Le jeu.
17 sept. 2020 à 15:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
a écrit :</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Hi
Lamiaa,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">I’ve
said this already. This policy doesn’t
enforce abuse, it enforces that the abuse
contact is there, and works.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Today
AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the
abuse handling because only a tiny
fraction of the members has the abuse
contacts in place.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">If
the contacts in the RIR database aren’t
actual and accurate, this is a clear
violation of the RSA. So what is
unacceptable is not having the contacts,
not on the other way around.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Abuse
is not defined by the RIRs, everybody
knows it and this is the reason why NONE
of the RIRs have re-defined it, because it
is already stated in RFC2142. Can you
justify why AFRINIC is different and need
a definition?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">How
you define it in the networks that you
operate?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border:1pt none black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
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style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
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style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt none
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<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">El 17/9/20
10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</span></a>>
escribió:</p>
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<div style="border:1pt none black;padding:0cm">
<div style="border:1pt none black;padding:0cm">
<div style="border:1pt none black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">Hello,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
New";color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm" lang="EN-US">I
will have to agree with Lucilla on what
she said and would like to add to it
that :</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">Firstly, Abuse
enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">Secondly, RIRs
have no ability to define what is
“abuse”, one abuse or even criminal
activity could be entirely a legal
operation in a different jurisdiction.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">Finally, making
a member forcefully reply to abuse
contact Emails are a waste of resources
and totally pointless, it is entirely up
to the member to define what they think
is acceptable in their network operation
and how they react to it. AFRINIC has no
mandate to force any member to reply to
an “abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even
have the ability to identify what is
considered an abuse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">Therefore the
entire policy is out of scope for the
RIR operation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
New";color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
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none windowtext;padding:0cm"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:12.7pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21);border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">Lamiaa</span></p>
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<pre style="margin-left:90.3pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-size:11.5pt"> </span></pre>
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<div style="border:1pt none
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">Le jeu. 17
sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">rpd@afrinic.net</span></a>>
a écrit :</p>
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solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">Hi Lucilla,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">Today we already have
mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
networks understand what it is an
abuse. If you operate networks you
know that *<b>anything</b>* which
is a non-authorized use of a
network is an abuse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">If you send spam,
attack networks, try to intrude
networks, etc., all those are
abuse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">What the policy ask
is to make sure that in AFRINIC
everybody has an abuse contact
(today we have mnt-IRT, but is not
mandatory, and as a results many
African networks are filtered
because lack of that – and
consequently they do not respond
to abuse cases -, which exist in
all the other regions of the
world).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">Not having an abuse
means more chances of legal
actions, more cost, for both the
victims and the ISPs. Having
that means that you have more
chances to resolve it in
goodfaith.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">One of the *<b>most
important</b>* Afrinic
missions is to have accuracy on
the database, which includes
accuracy on the contacts. We are
not fulfilling that in this
situation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">Remember that *<b>all</b>*
the other RIRs have already this
kind of policy. This one is like
the one that has been
implemented in APNIC, and the
accuracy of the contacts is now
87.5% as reported this month in
the last APNIC meeting. In that
report *<b>none</b>* of the
members indicated any of the
issues that you indicated
(didn't happened as well in the
other regions).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">You know who is
interested in not having abuse
contacts? Those that use their
networks for doing abuse
(hijacking, spam, DoS,
intrusions, etc.).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">Can you explain if
the network that you operate has
an abuse contact an how if one
of your customes is trying to
penetrate my network or do a
DoS, I will be able to contact
you and if you will do anything
or just ignore it?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;border:1pt
none windowtext;padding:0cm"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">El
17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
<<a
href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</span></a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Dear
all,</p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">I
have some concerns about the
“Abuse Contact Policy”.</p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">First
of all, it does not offer a
specific and regulated
description of the term
“abuse” and this opens the
door to potentially bigger
problems: a surplus of
reports, discrimination/legal
issues, and a waste of
resources. Around the world,
we can perceive what abuse is
in very different ways.</p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Afrinic
is not entitled to force
members to report abuses and
most importantly, this
proposal does not represent
Afrinic’s purpose.</p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">I,
therefore, oppose this policy.</p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Thank
you,</p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div style="border:1pt none
black;padding:0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Lucilla </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">_______________________________________________
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href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
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href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</span></a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
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This electronic message contains
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">_______________________________________________<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
<br>
IPv4 is over<br>
<br>
Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
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target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="border:1pt none
windowtext;padding:0cm">http://www.theipv6company.com</span></a><br>
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The IPv6 Company<br>
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<br>
This electronic message contains information
which may be privileged or confidential. The
information is intended to be for the
exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
and further non-explicilty authorized
disclosure, copying, distribution or use of
the contents of this information, even if
partially, including attached files, is
strictly prohibited and will be considered a
criminal offense. If you are not the intended
recipient be aware that any disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of the contents
of this information, even if partially,
including attached files, is strictly
prohibited, will be considered a criminal
offense, so you must reply to the original
sender to inform about this communication and
delete it.<br>
<br>
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</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Le jeu.
17 sept. 2020 à 15:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via
RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
a écrit :</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Hi
Lamiaa,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">I’ve
said this already. This policy doesn’t
enforce abuse, it enforces that the abuse
contact is there, and works.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Today
AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse
handling because only a tiny fraction of the
members has the abuse contacts in place.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">If the
contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual
and accurate, this is a clear violation of
the RSA. So what is unacceptable is not
having the contacts, not on the other way
around.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Abuse is
not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it
and this is the reason why NONE of the RIRs
have re-defined it, because it is already
stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why
AFRINIC is different and need a definition?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">How you
define it in the networks that you operate?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">El 17/9/20
10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <<a
href="mailto:lamiaachnayti@gmail.com"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lamiaachnayti@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)" lang="EN-US">Hello,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
New";color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)" lang="EN-US">I
will have to agree with Lucilla on what
she said and would like to add to it that
:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)">Firstly, Abuse
enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)">Secondly, RIRs
have no ability to define what is “abuse”,
one abuse or even criminal activity could
be entirely a legal operation in a
different jurisdiction.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)">Finally, making
a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
Emails are a waste of resources and
totally pointless, it is entirely up to
the member to define what they think is
acceptable in their network operation and
how they react to it. AFRINIC has no
mandate to force any member to reply to an
“abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have
the ability to identify what is considered
an abuse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)">Therefore the
entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
operation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
New";color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:"Courier
New";color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(21,21,21)">Lamiaa</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:8pt;margin-left:90.3pt;line-height:105%;vertical-align:baseline"><span
style="color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></p>
<pre style="margin-left:90.3pt;vertical-align:baseline"><span style="font-size:11.5pt;color:rgb(21,21,21)"> </span></pre>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:70.8pt"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt">Le jeu. 17
sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
a écrit :</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:1pt
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0cm 0cm 0cm
6pt;margin:5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Hi
Lucilla,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">Today
we already have mnt-IRT, and
everybody who operate networks
understand what it is an abuse. If
you operate networks you know that *<b>anything</b>*
which is a non-authorized use of a
network is an abuse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">If
you send spam, attack networks, try
to intrude networks, etc., all those
are abuse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US">What
the policy ask is to make sure that
in AFRINIC everybody has an abuse
contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
is not mandatory, and as a results
many African networks are filtered
because lack of that – and
consequently they do not respond to
abuse cases -, which exist in all
the other regions of the world).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Not having an abuse
means more chances of legal
actions, more cost, for both the
victims and the ISPs. Having that
means that you have more chances
to resolve it in goodfaith.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">One of the *<b>most
important</b>* Afrinic missions
is to have accuracy on the
database, which includes accuracy
on the contacts. We are not
fulfilling that in this situation.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Remember that *<b>all</b>*
the other RIRs have already this
kind of policy. This one is like
the one that has been implemented
in APNIC, and the accuracy of the
contacts is now 87.5% as reported
this month in the last APNIC
meeting. In that report *<b>none</b>*
of the members indicated any of
the issues that you indicated
(didn't happened as well in the
other regions).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">You know who is
interested in not having abuse
contacts? Those that use their
networks for doing abuse
(hijacking, spam, DoS, intrusions,
etc.).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Can you explain if
the network that you operate has
an abuse contact an how if one of
your customes is trying to
penetrate my network or do a DoS,
I will be able to contact you and
if you will do anything or just
ignore it?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">Jordi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US">@jordipalet</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt;color:black"
lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:70.8pt"><span
style="font-size:12pt" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">El
17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
<<a
href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>>
escribió:</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Dear
all,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">I
have some concerns about the
“Abuse Contact Policy”.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">First
of all, it does not offer a
specific and regulated
description of the term “abuse”
and this opens the door to
potentially bigger problems: a
surplus of reports,
discrimination/legal issues, and
a waste of resources. Around the
world, we can perceive what
abuse is in very different ways.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Afrinic
is not entitled to force members
to report abuses and most
importantly, this proposal does
not represent Afrinic’s purpose.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">I,
therefore, oppose this policy.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Thank
you,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">Lucilla </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:106.2pt">_______________________________________________
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href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
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target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:70.8pt"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
**********************************************<br>
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This electronic message contains information
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non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
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style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-left:35.4pt"><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">-- </p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"><span
style="font-family:Georgia,serif">Lamiaa
CHNAYTI</span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-left:35.4pt"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br>
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This electronic message contains information which may be
privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
distribution or use of the contents of this information,
even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you
are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure,
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this
information, even if partially, including attached files, is
strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense,
so you must reply to the original sender to inform about
this communication and delete it.<br>
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rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
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<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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