Search RPD Archives
[rpd] Abuse Contact Policy
Frank Habicht
geier at geier.ne.tz
Sat Sep 19 08:59:14 UTC 2020
Hi,
On 19/09/2020 08:40, lucilla fornaro wrote:
> I have to disagree!
>
> The point is: the proposal does not define or give an indicator of what
> an abuse is.
It does NOT need to do that.
The policy is NOT about abuses.
It is about *abuse contacts*.
It is about publishing *abuse contacts* in case someone, like a network
operator (who knows what an abuse is), wants to send an abuse complaint.
Network operators know what an abuse is - if they care.
Others, and this policy, don't need to know what an abuse is.
People, including participants on this list, may even disagree about
what constitutes abuse. They might also conclude, and agree that "what
is an abuse" depends on country, opinion, operator policy, time-of-day,
etc.
These are all things irrelevant to this policy.
This was stated multiple times.
Some people seem to ignore this.
Some people seem to reiterate that a definition of abuse is needed.
I believe that others and myself have explained why that is not the case.
Do the chairs agree that issues are re-iterated that have been shown to
be irrelevant to the discussion of this policy?
> It is not functional to propose a policy if the elements
> present in it are not clear.
I humbly request to differentiate between "abuse" (which this policy is
not directly about), and "abuse contacts" - which this policy aims to
ensure are to be published.
We have discussed sufficiently that the definition of "abuse" can vary.
Depending on /many/ things.
I believe we have agreed that the definition can vary.
Maybe the chairs can confirm that. I think this might be helpful.
The policy is about "abuse contacts".
I believe the 'elements present in it' are in fact clear.
> The main focus of the proposal is the
> abuse,
no. "abuse contacts".
> you said that the proposal makes sure that there is a valid
> response incase of an abuse report. BUT if people do not know what
> Afrinic means for abuse,
AfriNIC doesn't mean anything about "abuse".
AfriNIC, I believe, doesn't have a policy about what "abuse" is.
It is *NOT* for AfriNIC to decide that.
Network operators are capable of doing that.
Network operators are willing to do that.
If others - including participants on this list - are not able to define
what abuse is, that fact is irrelevant [1].
Because this policy is for the benefits of network operators.
And this policy affects AfriNIC Resource Members.
Participants on this mailing list are not required to be network
operators, nor are they required to be AfriNIC Resource Members.
Everybody is welcome.
But when it comes to discussing about the subject of this policy (which
is *abuse contacts*), it seems to be beneficial to understand some
distinctions.
> the reports will be too many, often
> unreasonable, with a consequent waste of time and resources.
so-called "Waste of resources" :
a) not on the part of AfriNIC
b) not on the part of network operators ignoring abuse complaints
c) possibly on the part of network operators filing abuse complaints
[who do understand that there is an unfortunately high chance of
getting ignored]
d) not on the part of recipients of abuse complaints who appreciate the
information in the complaints and are willing to
i) communicate with the complaintant
ii) clean up their network or customers, thus
iii) improving their own security and posture (housekeeping)
So, for those who want to be able to get abuse complaints, and for those
who want to "waste their time" with writing these abuse complaints, can
we pass this policy so that AfriNIC can enforce resource holders to
publish the abuse contacts....
..... without AfriNIC knowing or defining what constitutes abuse.
> In an ideal
> world, the proposal would be efficient the way it is. But we do not live
> in an ideal world.
Is it an improvement? progress in the right direction?
> If we want it to be effective in the long run, it is
> necessary to make adjustments.
disagree.
Also: you "forgot" to suggest the improvements here.
I wonder why.
I request the chairs to agree that supporters of the policy have shown
that a definition of "abuse" is not needed and continued calls for that
are not relevant.
Regards,
Frank
[1]
sorry, for the strong language of "irrelevant", but I think I better
make the thoughts very clear
>
> Lucilla
>> Il giorno ven 18 set 2020 alle ore 21:43 Fernando Frediani
> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:
>
> On 18/09/2020 05:22, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:
>> <clip>____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Again, this is not about defining what is abuse, this is among the
>> parties. It is about making sure that there is a valid responsible
>> contact in case of anyone needs to report what he considers an
>> abuse. AFRINIC will not punish anyone that believes that his
>> customer is not doing an abuse because in his country is not an abuse.
>>
> Exactly !
>
> Often people are misunderstanding the intention of the proposals and
> opposing them for reasons that are not written on them, which end up
> causing more confusion to other people.
>
> I support this proposal
> Fernando
>
>> ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> Jordi____
>>
>> @jordipalet____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> El 18/9/20 9:59, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Hello Jordi,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> RFC2142 only defines a tiny portion of the network abuse. In real
>> world operation, abuse consists of a much boarder range :
>> DMCA(copy rights) claims, unsolicited emails , phishing websites
>> , trade mark disputes etc. ____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> All those are legal issues that vary vastly across different
>> juridictions in which no one but each of the juridiction’s judges
>> can decide if it is an abuse or an illegal activity. Claiming that
>> RFC2142 defines not even 1% of real world abuse is laughable.____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Lamiaa____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:51, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
>>
>> Hi Lamiaa,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
>> enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
>> because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
>> contacts in place.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
>> accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
>> unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
>> around.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
>> is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
>> it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
>> is different and need a definition?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> How you define it in the networks that you operate?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> Jordi____
>>
>> @jordipalet____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Hello,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
>> like to add to it that :____
>>
>> Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____
>>
>> Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
>> abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
>> operation in a different jurisdiction.____
>>
>> Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
>> Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
>> entirely up to the member to define what they think is
>> acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
>> it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
>> “abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
>> identify what is considered an abuse.____
>>
>> Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
>> operation.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Lamiaa____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
>>
>> Hi Lucilla,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
>> networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
>> networks you know that **anything** which is a
>> non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
>> networks, etc., all those are abuse.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
>> everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
>> is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
>> are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
>> do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
>> other regions of the world).____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
>> more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
>> means that you have more chances to resolve it in
>> goodfaith.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
>> accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
>> contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
>> kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
>> implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
>> now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
>> meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
>> any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
>> well in the other regions).____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
>> Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
>> spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
>> abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
>> penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
>> contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> Jordi____
>>
>> @jordipalet____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Dear all,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____
>>
>> First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
>> description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
>> to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
>> discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
>> Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
>> different ways.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
>> and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
>> Afrinic’s purpose.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I, therefore, oppose this policy.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Thank you,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Lucilla ____
>>
>> _______________________________________________ RPD
>> mailing list RPD at afrinic.net
>> <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____
>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
>> be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
>> and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this information,
>> even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
>> you are not the intended recipient be aware that any
>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
>> of this information, even if partially, including attached
>> files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
>> criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender
>> to inform about this communication and delete it.____
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____
>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>>
>> IPv4 is over
>>
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>
>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>>
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>>
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
>> for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
>> further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
>> if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
>> and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
>> if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
>> reply to the original sender to inform about this
>> communication and delete it.
>>
>>
>> ____
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> RPD mailing list
>>
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> __ __
>>
>> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 15:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
>>
>> Hi Lamiaa,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I’ve said this already. This policy doesn’t enforce abuse, it
>> enforces that the abuse contact is there, and works.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Today AFRINIC is paying for the cost of the abuse handling
>> because only a tiny fraction of the members has the abuse
>> contacts in place.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> If the contacts in the RIR database aren’t actual and
>> accurate, this is a clear violation of the RSA. So what is
>> unacceptable is not having the contacts, not on the other way
>> around.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Abuse is not defined by the RIRs, everybody knows it and this
>> is the reason why NONE of the RIRs have re-defined it, because
>> it is already stated in RFC2142. Can you justify why AFRINIC
>> is different and need a definition?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> How you define it in the networks that you operate?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> Jordi____
>>
>> @jordipalet____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> El 17/9/20 10:49, "Lamiaa Chnayti" <lamiaachnayti at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lamiaachnayti at gmail.com>> escribió:____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Hello,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I will have to agree with Lucilla on what she said and would
>> like to add to it that :____
>>
>> Firstly, Abuse enforcement is out of scope for RIRs.____
>>
>> Secondly, RIRs have no ability to define what is “abuse”, one
>> abuse or even criminal activity could be entirely a legal
>> operation in a different jurisdiction.____
>>
>> Finally, making a member forcefully reply to abuse contact
>> Emails are a waste of resources and totally pointless, it is
>> entirely up to the member to define what they think is
>> acceptable in their network operation and how they react to
>> it. AFRINIC has no mandate to force any member to reply to an
>> “abuse”, since AFRINIC doesn’t even have the ability to
>> identify what is considered an abuse.____
>>
>> Therefore the entire policy is out of scope for the RIR
>> operation.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Lamiaa____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Le jeu. 17 sept. 2020 à 07:42, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :____
>>
>> Hi Lucilla,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Today we already have mnt-IRT, and everybody who operate
>> networks understand what it is an abuse. If you operate
>> networks you know that **anything** which is a
>> non-authorized use of a network is an abuse.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> If you send spam, attack networks, try to intrude
>> networks, etc., all those are abuse.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> What the policy ask is to make sure that in AFRINIC
>> everybody has an abuse contact (today we have mnt-IRT, but
>> is not mandatory, and as a results many African networks
>> are filtered because lack of that – and consequently they
>> do not respond to abuse cases -, which exist in all the
>> other regions of the world).____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Not having an abuse means more chances of legal actions,
>> more cost, for both the victims and the ISPs. Having that
>> means that you have more chances to resolve it in
>> goodfaith.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> One of the **most important** Afrinic missions is to have
>> accuracy on the database, which includes accuracy on the
>> contacts. We are not fulfilling that in this situation.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Remember that **all** the other RIRs have already this
>> kind of policy. This one is like the one that has been
>> implemented in APNIC, and the accuracy of the contacts is
>> now 87.5% as reported this month in the last APNIC
>> meeting. In that report **none** of the members indicated
>> any of the issues that you indicated (didn't happened as
>> well in the other regions).____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> You know who is interested in not having abuse contacts?
>> Those that use their networks for doing abuse (hijacking,
>> spam, DoS, intrusions, etc.).____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Can you explain if the network that you operate has an
>> abuse contact an how if one of your customes is trying to
>> penetrate my network or do a DoS, I will be able to
>> contact you and if you will do anything or just ignore it?____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Regards,____
>>
>> Jordi____
>>
>> @jordipalet____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> El 17/9/20 2:21, "lucilla fornaro"
>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Dear all,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I have some concerns about the “Abuse Contact Policy”.____
>>
>> First of all, it does not offer a specific and regulated
>> description of the term “abuse” and this opens the door
>> to potentially bigger problems: a surplus of reports,
>> discrimination/legal issues, and a waste of resources.
>> Around the world, we can perceive what abuse is in very
>> different ways.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Afrinic is not entitled to force members to report abuses
>> and most importantly, this proposal does not represent
>> Afrinic’s purpose.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> I, therefore, oppose this policy.____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Thank you,____
>>
>> ____
>>
>> Lucilla ____
>>
>> _______________________________________________ RPD
>> mailing list RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd> ____
>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to
>> be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above
>> and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this information,
>> even if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>> prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If
>> you are not the intended recipient be aware that any
>> disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
>> of this information, even if partially, including attached
>> files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a
>> criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender
>> to inform about this communication and delete it.____
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____
>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>>
>>
>> IPv4 is over
>>
>>
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>
>>
>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>>
>>
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be
>> for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and
>> further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
>> if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited
>> and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the
>> intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying,
>> distribution or use of the contents of this information, even
>> if partially, including attached files, is strictly
>> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must
>> reply to the original sender to inform about this
>> communication and delete it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ____
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> RPD mailing list
>>
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>____
>>
>> -- ____
>>
>> Lamiaa CHNAYTI____
>>
>> __ __
>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com>
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be
>> privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for
>> the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further
>> non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use
>> of the contents of this information, even if partially, including
>> attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a
>> criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware
>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents
>> of this information, even if partially, including attached files,
>> is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so
>> you must reply to the original sender to inform about this
>> communication and delete it.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RPD mailing list
>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
> <https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RPD mailing list
> RPD at afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>
More information about the RPD
mailing list