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[rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer Policy (Draft-2)

Fernando Frediani fhfrediani at gmail.com
Fri Sep 18 12:37:53 UTC 2020


Hello Marius, Jordi and Jaco

In order to make the Co-Chair life easier it is important to make clear
for them you oppose this proposal, if I understand correctly what you
all said.

I agree with all mentioned about a minimum time must exist in order to
prevent fraud and flow of addresses out of the AfriNic region and which
this proposal wishes to change. Therefore I oppose it too.
Fernando

On 18/09/2020 06:13, Jaco Kroon wrote:

>

> A nee could be to sell them.

>

> I'm in favour of keeping delays.

>

> Kind Regards,

> Jaco

>

> On 2020/09/18 09:59, Marius Andioc via RPD wrote:

>

>> Dear Jordi,

>>

>> This would be the case if there was absolutely no safeguard, which is

>> not the case.

>>

>> Transfer and Allocation policies are both need based, which implies

>> for both source and entities to be able to justify their transfers.

>> If one asks for new resources after just transferring them, it will

>> need to justify its needs in a very different context than one who

>> didn't transfer. Justifying a need of resources will be more

>> demanding as being in the position of transferring makes you suspicious.

>>

>> I think the need requirements are sufficient safeguards and we should

>> preserve a mechanism as simple as possible to allocate resources

>> efficiently.

>>

>> Best regards,

>>

>> Marius

>>

>>

>> Le 18 sept. 2020 00:12, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD

>> <rpd at afrinic.net> a écrit :

>>

>> I disagree.

>>

>> Having no “wait” time to get new resources, is prone to abuse.

>>

>> Having no “hold” time, once to received AFRINIC resources, to

>> transfer them, is prone to abuse.

>>

>> It is rationally impossible to justify otherwise.

>>

>> Regards,

>>

>> Jordi

>>

>> @jordipalet

>>

>> El 17/9/20 9:11, "lucilla fornaro"

>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:

>>

>> Hello Cathy,

>>

>> You made a good observation. Afrinic only has 3% of world space,

>> which means that there is not a real reason to worry. This

>> transfer policy will finally put Afrinic in the same position as

>> the other RIRs.

>>

>> Section 5.7.3.3 <http://5.7.3.3/>: it is positive not to have an

>> upper limit regarding the amount of transfer because this will

>> facilitate the flow of addresses. And this will make the

>> difference once the IPv4 resources will be depleted.

>>

>> Most importantly, it is not up to Afrinic to offer a fraud

>> prevention service, and this policy does not in any way encourage

>> malicious or fraudulent activities.

>>

>> best wishes,

>>

>> Lucilla

>>

>> Il giorno gio 17 set 2020 alle ore 04:29 Cathie Jay

>> <cathie.kay89 at gmail.com <mailto:cathie.kay89 at gmail.com>> ha scritto:

>>

>> Dear all,

>>

>> I fully support this policy which would allow a mutual

>> transfer of

>> resources between two or several African regions. It is a

>> completely

>> functional policy, which is primarily need-based. AFRINIC is

>> the only

>> RIR without a transfer policy and has only 3% of the world space.

>> Therefore AFRINIC is gaining a lot more by adopting this

>> policy. I

>> would also add, after following the several discussions on

>> the list,

>> that this policy does not address internet fraud in any wat.

>> What is

>> enhanced here is the free flow of transfers.

>>

>> All best wishes,

>>

>> Cathie

>>

>>

>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 7:03 PM dc at darwincosta.com

>> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com> <dc at darwincosta.com

>> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com>> wrote:

>> >

>> >

>> > On 15 Sep 2020, at 17:53, Daniel Yakmut via RPD

>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

>> >

>> > 

>> > The highlighted hurdles can hold up the policy reaching a

>> consensus on time to be relevant.

>> >

>> > Hence I see the simplicity of the intra RIR transfer as

>> something that we can agree on and put to use as soon as

>> possible. The free flow market makes it attractive and self

>> controlling.

>> >

>> > Self controlling? What do you mean by that?

>> >

>> > I rather stick with Fernando’s last quote:

>> >

>> > This talk about "free flow market" is something that only

>> benefits those willing to misuse IP space and profit from it

>> instead of using it for its main propose which is ensure

>> Internet can continuing developing in the region.

>> >

>> >

>> > Simply,

>> > Daniel

>> >

>> >

>> > Darwin-.

>> >

>> >

>> > On Sep 14, 2020 8:21 PM, "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com

>> <mailto:mike at iptrading.com>> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> Hello,

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Apologies for yet more input from outside the region.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> We don’t want registries deciding good and evil uses for

>> addresses, we want them accurately maintaining a list of

>> unique numbers and their registrants, per the ancient RFC2050.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> The future is just about here and will arrive when AFRINIC

>> reaches full exhaust. It’s time for the registries to

>> recognize that conservation, one of the original purposes of

>> the RIRs, is now performed automatically by the market.

>> People don’t waste valuable resources as a rule.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Now is the time for the RIRs to concentrate on their only

>> other purpose besides conservation, and that is accurate

>> registration.  To meet the absolute requirement of unique

>> registration, it’s important that RIRs do not implement

>> policies that run counter to normal business activities like

>> transfers, lest those policies engender things like

>> unregistered leases or sales resulting in inaccurate

>> registrations.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> To bring this discussion back to the point, what is the

>> likelihood that an AFRINIC member will have the time to

>> justify and acquire addresses from AFRINIC, sell them to

>> another AFRINIC member while the free pool still exists, and

>> go back to the free pool for another allocation?  Remember

>> there is still not inter-regional policy, so the only buyer

>> would be another AFRINIC member who would have to justify his

>> need in order to purchase addresses, and he could simply

>> utilize that same justification to get the addresses directly

>> from AFRINIC.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> And this policy would still have to reach consensus and be

>> implemented, making it that much farther away in time, as the

>> remaining pool shrinks.

>> >>

>> >> I think it’s a moot point and resell limits as a rule are

>> an impediment to a free-flowing market. And I say that as the

>> original author of the 12 month time limit in ARIN policy.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Regards,

>> >> Mike Burns

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> From: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com

>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>

>> >> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 2:46 PM

>> >> To: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

>> >> Subject: Re: [rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer

>> Policy (Draft-2)

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> On 14/09/2020 15:21, Ekaterina Kalugina wrote:

>> >>

>> >> <clip>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> In addition, I would argue it is not up to the RIR to

>> decide who are “bad guys” and what are “malicious

>> activities.” It is my conviction (please do correct me if I

>> am wrong), that RIRs are merely registration entities and

>> therefore cannot pass judgment of whether the receiver of

>> transfer is a “good” or a “bad” guy. RIRs also should not

>> have any interest for which purpose the resources are used as

>> long as “technical need” is proven. Also, according to my

>> knowledge of how the international economy works – it doesn’t

>> matter if it is “good” or “bad” guys who are requesting the

>> transfer of resources, long as there is a free flow of

>> resources, and the commissions are being paid and taxed, it

>> should only bolster the economy in the region.

>> >>

>> >> It is up to the RIR to oversee how resources are used and

>> if they are not used for the proposes they were originally

>> justified they should be recovered and re-assigned to other

>> organizations who commit to use them how they should be: to

>> make the Internet work, evolve and to get more people

>> connected to it.

>> >> If organizations are just holding IP space in order to

>> make them worth more in order to sell them later and profit

>> from it then they are not using this scarce resource as

>> originally justified and they better be re-distributed to

>> those who really need them.We are talking about a scarce

>> shared owned resource and not a private properly which can be

>> produced any anytime.

>> >>

>> >> If no justification would be necessary then it would be

>> unfair with those who need the IP space to make the internet

>> to work.

>> >> Overall it is up to the RIR to determine the rules and

>> conditions these resources be justified which is done on each

>> regional policy forum. Furthermore each organization signs an

>> contract with the RIR agreeing to bind to these rules in

>> order to keep these resources.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> In any case, I think we need to abstract ourselves from

>> using moral categories and focus on the important issues,

>> which are, in my view, facilitating the economic development

>> of the African region and putting AFRINIC on equal ground

>> with other RIRs. As far as I can see, this policy does

>> precisely that. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support it.

>> >>

>> >> Having an organization to justify the need of resources

>> doesn't block any economic development in the region. It's

>> actually the contrary.If people are allowed to hold resources

>> without any justification then they will end up on the hands

>> of those who can pay more and not on the hands of those who

>> really need them, making it more difficult for the internet

>> to progress in the region.

>> >>

>> >> Fernando

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Warmest wishes,

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Ekaterina Kay Kalugina

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020, 09:51 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD

>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> If we are asking all the organizations to justify the need

>> and to have some wait time for more resources, why we want to

>> have a different view on the transfers?

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> This only helps bad guys that want to use the resources

>> for malicious activities and also makes brokers getting more

>> commissions.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Regards,

>> >>

>> >> Jordi

>> >>

>> >> @jordipalet

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> El 14/9/20 5:30, "lucilla fornaro"

>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> I agree with your idea that basically corruption may occur

>> (like in any other policy and in any other RIR) but there are

>> instruments to avoid it and supervise.

>> >>

>> >> I believe that by not supporting organizations that need

>> it due to possible dishonesty, we only generate damage and a

>> dangerous precedent.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Lucilla

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Il giorno lun 14 set 2020 alle ore 11:49 Fernando Frediani

>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:

>> >>

>> >> This type of justification in my view is a justification

>> that only benefits brokers and those who are willing to

>> financially speculate from IP space instead of using it for

>> what they should be, and goes on the opposite direction of

>> other regions even after their respective exhaustion phases.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Fernando

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> On Sun, 13 Sep 2020, 23:38 lucilla fornaro,

>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:

>> >>

>> >> I think that with this proposal AFRINIC would fully be

>> able to support any kind of organization in this uncertain

>> period. In fact, due to the pandemic situation it is clear

>> that unexpected problems may occur any time. AFRINIC should

>> be able to transfer resources even to those that gave up

>> assigned resources during the previous 12 months. Only this

>> way it’s possible to facilitate the flow of resources from

>> those who have them in excess ( and don’t use them) to those

>> who need them and cannot afford to wait 12 months.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> The issue concerning workload is relevant because as the

>> proposal supports, transfers won’t need approval from

>> Afrinic. This and the section 5.7.5 will help a lot to make

>> the overall working system more efficient.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> I also think that “no upper limit regarding the amount of

>> transfers” (section 5.7.3.3) will make a difference when IPv4

>> will be definitely depleted.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Lucilla

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Il giorno ven 11 set 2020 alle ore 02:53 Fernando Frediani

>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:

>> >>

>> >> Releasing organizations from 12 months period doesn't make

>> any sense and goes in the opposite way of good sense. So

>> someone who gave up their just assigned resources

>> transferring to someone else. What is the sense of it ?

>> >>

>> >> Smaller organizations can receive resources from AfricNic

>> directly in Phase 2, so why would they need to make such

>> transfers ? Also I don't think anyone is against allowing

>> transfers Intra and Inter-RIR at the current stage. That's

>> not the problem.

>> >>

>> >> I cannot understand what type of "issue" it can cause in

>> terms of workload to the RIR and the time required for each

>> request ? What does one thing have to do with the other ? If

>> a request fulfill the minimal requirements there are no

>> delays or extra workload do process the request.

>> >>

>> >> Regarding the "enrichment of its own financial pocket by

>> Allocation Fees" this is still possible for any organizations

>> who requests blocks according to Phase 2 so that statement is

>> not correct either.

>> >>

>> >> There is a better well written proposal to allow Inter-RIR

>> transfers under discussion which is and I invite others to

>> support it instead which is "IPv4 Inter-RIR Resource

>> Transfers (Comprehensive Scope) Draft-4 ". This one fulfill

>> completely the need of Inter-RIR transfers for the region.

>> >>

>> >> Regards

>> >> Fernando

>> >>

>> >> On 10/09/2020 11:31, lucilla fornaro wrote:

>> >>

>> >> Hello everyone,

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> My name is Lucilla, I graduated in Law and I am currently

>> attending a Master Degree in International Business. I would

>> like to give my contribution to the discussion.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> For 5.7.3.2 <http://5.7.3.2>: The barrier of 12 months

>> represents an issue for many entities that need to face

>> unexpected problems. AFRINIC needs to allow a smoother and

>> faster resource transfer to support both smaller

>> organizations’ growth, as well as enrich its own financial

>> pocket by the Allocation Fees that need to be covered by

>> entities that are not member yet.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> And for what concerns other RIR like LACNIC, its policy is

>> proving to create some issue. They, as well as the other

>> RIRs, are facing a heavy workload because of the dilatation

>> of time required for each request, that once approved need to

>> be included into another waiting list due to quarantine

>> reasons. These complications cannot be smoothly managed by

>> AFRINIC due its shortage of workforce. The section 5.7.3.2

>> would make the overall working system more efficient.

>> Furthermore, LACNIC entered phase 3 (back in 2017) of the

>> IPv4 Exhaustion, meanwhile AFRINIC is facing a different

>> situation.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> I strongly support Section 5.7.3.3 <http://5.7.3.3>: it is

>> positive not to have an upper limit regarding the amount of

>> transfer because this will facilitate the flow of addresses.

>> IPv4 addresses within the region will soon be depleted,

>> transfer policy for IPv4 resources within and outside the

>> region is strongly needed.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Lucilla

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> ________________________________

>> >>

>> >> Da: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com

>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>

>> >> Inviato: Thursday, September 10, 2020 1:49:44 PM

>> >> A: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>

>> >> Oggetto: Re: [rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer

>> Policy (Draft-2)

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> I see that point 5.7.3.2 goes in the opposite way of the

>> obvious.

>> >> If an organization gave up of its IP address space because

>> it doesn't have usage for it anymore, why would it be allowed

>> to receive more resources from AfriNic in short term ?

>> >> Organizations receive IP space upon justification expected

>> to be used to serve their customers in a certain time frame

>> ahead. If sudden it realizes these addresses are not

>> necessary anymore and transfer them to some other

>> organization who really need them why would the source entity

>> be allowed to receive even further space ?

>> >> It is not correct to say it drags Afrinic service region

>> backwards in comparison to other RIRs. LACNIC and ARIN for

>> example have similar policies in regards this topic.

>> >>

>> >> 5.7.3.3. doesn't make sense either to be changed. The

>> current text is correct and has a proper reason to be like

>> this, otherwise it opens doors to fraud and to organizations

>> to receive IP space form Afrinic and immediately to transfer

>> to someone else who cannot receive them anymore under the

>> current exhaustion rules.

>> >>

>> >> Therefore I oppose this proposal.

>> >>

>> >> Fernando

>> >>

>> >> On 09/09/2020 11:40, Ibeanusi Elvis wrote:

>> >>

>> >> Hello Everyone,

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> My Name is Ibeanusi Elvis. I am a Masters student of

>> Global Law, Politics and Peace and Conflict Studies at the

>> Tokyo University of Foreign Studies. Highly Interested in

>> Internet Governance and Policy Making specifically within the

>> AFRINIC service region.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> In regards to this proposal, I support the Proposed

>> Section 5.7.3.2 as source entities are eligible to receive

>> further IPv4 allocations or assignments from AFRINIC as long

>> as it complies with current policy because a 12 month

>> non-eligibility delay period after transfer approval

>> diminishes, hinders and is detrimental to the operational,

>> developmental and growth of businesses within the AFRINIC

>> region. Hence, dragging the African continent and AFRINIC

>> service region backwards in comparison with other RIRs.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Additionally, Section 5.7.3.2 and Section 5.7.5.3 ensures

>> a swift communication between the transferring and receiving

>> RIRs to enhance a smooth transfer and receive of allocations

>> and assignments.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> Best regards,

>> >>

>> >> Ibeanusi Elvis .C.

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >> _______________________________________________

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