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[rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer Policy (Draft-2)
Fernando Frediani
fhfrediani at gmail.com
Fri Sep 18 12:37:53 UTC 2020
Hello Marius, Jordi and Jaco
In order to make the Co-Chair life easier it is important to make clear
for them you oppose this proposal, if I understand correctly what you
all said.
I agree with all mentioned about a minimum time must exist in order to
prevent fraud and flow of addresses out of the AfriNic region and which
this proposal wishes to change. Therefore I oppose it too.
Fernando
On 18/09/2020 06:13, Jaco Kroon wrote:
>
> A nee could be to sell them.
>
> I'm in favour of keeping delays.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Jaco
>
> On 2020/09/18 09:59, Marius Andioc via RPD wrote:
>
>> Dear Jordi,
>>
>> This would be the case if there was absolutely no safeguard, which is
>> not the case.
>>
>> Transfer and Allocation policies are both need based, which implies
>> for both source and entities to be able to justify their transfers.
>> If one asks for new resources after just transferring them, it will
>> need to justify its needs in a very different context than one who
>> didn't transfer. Justifying a need of resources will be more
>> demanding as being in the position of transferring makes you suspicious.
>>
>> I think the need requirements are sufficient safeguards and we should
>> preserve a mechanism as simple as possible to allocate resources
>> efficiently.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Marius
>>
>>
>> Le 18 sept. 2020 00:12, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net> a écrit :
>>
>> I disagree.
>>
>> Having no “wait” time to get new resources, is prone to abuse.
>>
>> Having no “hold” time, once to received AFRINIC resources, to
>> transfer them, is prone to abuse.
>>
>> It is rationally impossible to justify otherwise.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jordi
>>
>> @jordipalet
>>
>> El 17/9/20 9:11, "lucilla fornaro"
>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>
>> Hello Cathy,
>>
>> You made a good observation. Afrinic only has 3% of world space,
>> which means that there is not a real reason to worry. This
>> transfer policy will finally put Afrinic in the same position as
>> the other RIRs.
>>
>> Section 5.7.3.3 <http://5.7.3.3/>: it is positive not to have an
>> upper limit regarding the amount of transfer because this will
>> facilitate the flow of addresses. And this will make the
>> difference once the IPv4 resources will be depleted.
>>
>> Most importantly, it is not up to Afrinic to offer a fraud
>> prevention service, and this policy does not in any way encourage
>> malicious or fraudulent activities.
>>
>> best wishes,
>>
>> Lucilla
>>
>> Il giorno gio 17 set 2020 alle ore 04:29 Cathie Jay
>> <cathie.kay89 at gmail.com <mailto:cathie.kay89 at gmail.com>> ha scritto:
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I fully support this policy which would allow a mutual
>> transfer of
>> resources between two or several African regions. It is a
>> completely
>> functional policy, which is primarily need-based. AFRINIC is
>> the only
>> RIR without a transfer policy and has only 3% of the world space.
>> Therefore AFRINIC is gaining a lot more by adopting this
>> policy. I
>> would also add, after following the several discussions on
>> the list,
>> that this policy does not address internet fraud in any wat.
>> What is
>> enhanced here is the free flow of transfers.
>>
>> All best wishes,
>>
>> Cathie
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 7:03 PM dc at darwincosta.com
>> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com> <dc at darwincosta.com
>> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > On 15 Sep 2020, at 17:53, Daniel Yakmut via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > The highlighted hurdles can hold up the policy reaching a
>> consensus on time to be relevant.
>> >
>> > Hence I see the simplicity of the intra RIR transfer as
>> something that we can agree on and put to use as soon as
>> possible. The free flow market makes it attractive and self
>> controlling.
>> >
>> > Self controlling? What do you mean by that?
>> >
>> > I rather stick with Fernando’s last quote:
>> >
>> > This talk about "free flow market" is something that only
>> benefits those willing to misuse IP space and profit from it
>> instead of using it for its main propose which is ensure
>> Internet can continuing developing in the region.
>> >
>> >
>> > Simply,
>> > Daniel
>> >
>> >
>> > Darwin-.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sep 14, 2020 8:21 PM, "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com
>> <mailto:mike at iptrading.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Apologies for yet more input from outside the region.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> We don’t want registries deciding good and evil uses for
>> addresses, we want them accurately maintaining a list of
>> unique numbers and their registrants, per the ancient RFC2050.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The future is just about here and will arrive when AFRINIC
>> reaches full exhaust. It’s time for the registries to
>> recognize that conservation, one of the original purposes of
>> the RIRs, is now performed automatically by the market.
>> People don’t waste valuable resources as a rule.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Now is the time for the RIRs to concentrate on their only
>> other purpose besides conservation, and that is accurate
>> registration. To meet the absolute requirement of unique
>> registration, it’s important that RIRs do not implement
>> policies that run counter to normal business activities like
>> transfers, lest those policies engender things like
>> unregistered leases or sales resulting in inaccurate
>> registrations.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> To bring this discussion back to the point, what is the
>> likelihood that an AFRINIC member will have the time to
>> justify and acquire addresses from AFRINIC, sell them to
>> another AFRINIC member while the free pool still exists, and
>> go back to the free pool for another allocation? Remember
>> there is still not inter-regional policy, so the only buyer
>> would be another AFRINIC member who would have to justify his
>> need in order to purchase addresses, and he could simply
>> utilize that same justification to get the addresses directly
>> from AFRINIC.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And this policy would still have to reach consensus and be
>> implemented, making it that much farther away in time, as the
>> remaining pool shrinks.
>> >>
>> >> I think it’s a moot point and resell limits as a rule are
>> an impediment to a free-flowing market. And I say that as the
>> original author of the 12 month time limit in ARIN policy.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Mike Burns
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> From: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com
>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>
>> >> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 2:46 PM
>> >> To: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>> >> Subject: Re: [rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer
>> Policy (Draft-2)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 14/09/2020 15:21, Ekaterina Kalugina wrote:
>> >>
>> >> <clip>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In addition, I would argue it is not up to the RIR to
>> decide who are “bad guys” and what are “malicious
>> activities.” It is my conviction (please do correct me if I
>> am wrong), that RIRs are merely registration entities and
>> therefore cannot pass judgment of whether the receiver of
>> transfer is a “good” or a “bad” guy. RIRs also should not
>> have any interest for which purpose the resources are used as
>> long as “technical need” is proven. Also, according to my
>> knowledge of how the international economy works – it doesn’t
>> matter if it is “good” or “bad” guys who are requesting the
>> transfer of resources, long as there is a free flow of
>> resources, and the commissions are being paid and taxed, it
>> should only bolster the economy in the region.
>> >>
>> >> It is up to the RIR to oversee how resources are used and
>> if they are not used for the proposes they were originally
>> justified they should be recovered and re-assigned to other
>> organizations who commit to use them how they should be: to
>> make the Internet work, evolve and to get more people
>> connected to it.
>> >> If organizations are just holding IP space in order to
>> make them worth more in order to sell them later and profit
>> from it then they are not using this scarce resource as
>> originally justified and they better be re-distributed to
>> those who really need them.We are talking about a scarce
>> shared owned resource and not a private properly which can be
>> produced any anytime.
>> >>
>> >> If no justification would be necessary then it would be
>> unfair with those who need the IP space to make the internet
>> to work.
>> >> Overall it is up to the RIR to determine the rules and
>> conditions these resources be justified which is done on each
>> regional policy forum. Furthermore each organization signs an
>> contract with the RIR agreeing to bind to these rules in
>> order to keep these resources.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In any case, I think we need to abstract ourselves from
>> using moral categories and focus on the important issues,
>> which are, in my view, facilitating the economic development
>> of the African region and putting AFRINIC on equal ground
>> with other RIRs. As far as I can see, this policy does
>> precisely that. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support it.
>> >>
>> >> Having an organization to justify the need of resources
>> doesn't block any economic development in the region. It's
>> actually the contrary.If people are allowed to hold resources
>> without any justification then they will end up on the hands
>> of those who can pay more and not on the hands of those who
>> really need them, making it more difficult for the internet
>> to progress in the region.
>> >>
>> >> Fernando
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Warmest wishes,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Ekaterina Kay Kalugina
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020, 09:51 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> If we are asking all the organizations to justify the need
>> and to have some wait time for more resources, why we want to
>> have a different view on the transfers?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This only helps bad guys that want to use the resources
>> for malicious activities and also makes brokers getting more
>> commissions.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>
>> >> Jordi
>> >>
>> >> @jordipalet
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> El 14/9/20 5:30, "lucilla fornaro"
>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I agree with your idea that basically corruption may occur
>> (like in any other policy and in any other RIR) but there are
>> instruments to avoid it and supervise.
>> >>
>> >> I believe that by not supporting organizations that need
>> it due to possible dishonesty, we only generate damage and a
>> dangerous precedent.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Lucilla
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Il giorno lun 14 set 2020 alle ore 11:49 Fernando Frediani
>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:
>> >>
>> >> This type of justification in my view is a justification
>> that only benefits brokers and those who are willing to
>> financially speculate from IP space instead of using it for
>> what they should be, and goes on the opposite direction of
>> other regions even after their respective exhaustion phases.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Fernando
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, 13 Sep 2020, 23:38 lucilla fornaro,
>> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com
>> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I think that with this proposal AFRINIC would fully be
>> able to support any kind of organization in this uncertain
>> period. In fact, due to the pandemic situation it is clear
>> that unexpected problems may occur any time. AFRINIC should
>> be able to transfer resources even to those that gave up
>> assigned resources during the previous 12 months. Only this
>> way it’s possible to facilitate the flow of resources from
>> those who have them in excess ( and don’t use them) to those
>> who need them and cannot afford to wait 12 months.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> The issue concerning workload is relevant because as the
>> proposal supports, transfers won’t need approval from
>> Afrinic. This and the section 5.7.5 will help a lot to make
>> the overall working system more efficient.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I also think that “no upper limit regarding the amount of
>> transfers” (section 5.7.3.3) will make a difference when IPv4
>> will be definitely depleted.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Lucilla
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Il giorno ven 11 set 2020 alle ore 02:53 Fernando Frediani
>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:
>> >>
>> >> Releasing organizations from 12 months period doesn't make
>> any sense and goes in the opposite way of good sense. So
>> someone who gave up their just assigned resources
>> transferring to someone else. What is the sense of it ?
>> >>
>> >> Smaller organizations can receive resources from AfricNic
>> directly in Phase 2, so why would they need to make such
>> transfers ? Also I don't think anyone is against allowing
>> transfers Intra and Inter-RIR at the current stage. That's
>> not the problem.
>> >>
>> >> I cannot understand what type of "issue" it can cause in
>> terms of workload to the RIR and the time required for each
>> request ? What does one thing have to do with the other ? If
>> a request fulfill the minimal requirements there are no
>> delays or extra workload do process the request.
>> >>
>> >> Regarding the "enrichment of its own financial pocket by
>> Allocation Fees" this is still possible for any organizations
>> who requests blocks according to Phase 2 so that statement is
>> not correct either.
>> >>
>> >> There is a better well written proposal to allow Inter-RIR
>> transfers under discussion which is and I invite others to
>> support it instead which is "IPv4 Inter-RIR Resource
>> Transfers (Comprehensive Scope) Draft-4 ". This one fulfill
>> completely the need of Inter-RIR transfers for the region.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >> Fernando
>> >>
>> >> On 10/09/2020 11:31, lucilla fornaro wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello everyone,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> My name is Lucilla, I graduated in Law and I am currently
>> attending a Master Degree in International Business. I would
>> like to give my contribution to the discussion.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> For 5.7.3.2 <http://5.7.3.2>: The barrier of 12 months
>> represents an issue for many entities that need to face
>> unexpected problems. AFRINIC needs to allow a smoother and
>> faster resource transfer to support both smaller
>> organizations’ growth, as well as enrich its own financial
>> pocket by the Allocation Fees that need to be covered by
>> entities that are not member yet.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And for what concerns other RIR like LACNIC, its policy is
>> proving to create some issue. They, as well as the other
>> RIRs, are facing a heavy workload because of the dilatation
>> of time required for each request, that once approved need to
>> be included into another waiting list due to quarantine
>> reasons. These complications cannot be smoothly managed by
>> AFRINIC due its shortage of workforce. The section 5.7.3.2
>> would make the overall working system more efficient.
>> Furthermore, LACNIC entered phase 3 (back in 2017) of the
>> IPv4 Exhaustion, meanwhile AFRINIC is facing a different
>> situation.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I strongly support Section 5.7.3.3 <http://5.7.3.3>: it is
>> positive not to have an upper limit regarding the amount of
>> transfer because this will facilitate the flow of addresses.
>> IPv4 addresses within the region will soon be depleted,
>> transfer policy for IPv4 resources within and outside the
>> region is strongly needed.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Lucilla
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ________________________________
>> >>
>> >> Da: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com
>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>
>> >> Inviato: Thursday, September 10, 2020 1:49:44 PM
>> >> A: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>> >> Oggetto: Re: [rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer
>> Policy (Draft-2)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> I see that point 5.7.3.2 goes in the opposite way of the
>> obvious.
>> >> If an organization gave up of its IP address space because
>> it doesn't have usage for it anymore, why would it be allowed
>> to receive more resources from AfriNic in short term ?
>> >> Organizations receive IP space upon justification expected
>> to be used to serve their customers in a certain time frame
>> ahead. If sudden it realizes these addresses are not
>> necessary anymore and transfer them to some other
>> organization who really need them why would the source entity
>> be allowed to receive even further space ?
>> >> It is not correct to say it drags Afrinic service region
>> backwards in comparison to other RIRs. LACNIC and ARIN for
>> example have similar policies in regards this topic.
>> >>
>> >> 5.7.3.3. doesn't make sense either to be changed. The
>> current text is correct and has a proper reason to be like
>> this, otherwise it opens doors to fraud and to organizations
>> to receive IP space form Afrinic and immediately to transfer
>> to someone else who cannot receive them anymore under the
>> current exhaustion rules.
>> >>
>> >> Therefore I oppose this proposal.
>> >>
>> >> Fernando
>> >>
>> >> On 09/09/2020 11:40, Ibeanusi Elvis wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello Everyone,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> My Name is Ibeanusi Elvis. I am a Masters student of
>> Global Law, Politics and Peace and Conflict Studies at the
>> Tokyo University of Foreign Studies. Highly Interested in
>> Internet Governance and Policy Making specifically within the
>> AFRINIC service region.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> In regards to this proposal, I support the Proposed
>> Section 5.7.3.2 as source entities are eligible to receive
>> further IPv4 allocations or assignments from AFRINIC as long
>> as it complies with current policy because a 12 month
>> non-eligibility delay period after transfer approval
>> diminishes, hinders and is detrimental to the operational,
>> developmental and growth of businesses within the AFRINIC
>> region. Hence, dragging the African continent and AFRINIC
>> service region backwards in comparison with other RIRs.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Additionally, Section 5.7.3.2 and Section 5.7.5.3 ensures
>> a swift communication between the transferring and receiving
>> RIRs to enhance a smooth transfer and receive of allocations
>> and assignments.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Best regards,
>> >>
>> >> Ibeanusi Elvis .C.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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