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[rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer Policy (Draft-2)

Jaco Kroon jaco at uls.co.za
Fri Sep 18 09:13:45 UTC 2020


A nee could be to sell them.

I'm in favour of keeping delays.

Kind Regards,
Jaco

On 2020/09/18 09:59, Marius Andioc via RPD wrote:


> Dear Jordi, 

>

> This would be the case if there was absolutely no safeguard, which is

> not the case. 

>

> Transfer and Allocation policies are both need based, which implies

> for both source and entities to be able to justify their transfers. If

> one asks for new resources after just transferring them, it will need

> to justify its needs in a very different context than one who didn't

> transfer. Justifying a need of resources will be more demanding as

> being in the position of transferring makes you suspicious. 

>

> I think the need requirements are sufficient safeguards and we should

> preserve a mechanism as simple as possible to allocate resources

> efficiently. 

>

> Best regards, 

>

> Marius 

>

>

> Le 18 sept. 2020 00:12, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net>

> a écrit :

>

> I disagree.

>

>  

>

> Having no “wait” time to get new resources, is prone to abuse.

>

>  

>

> Having no “hold” time, once to received AFRINIC resources, to

> transfer them, is prone to abuse.

>

>  

>

> It is rationally impossible to justify otherwise.

>

>  

>

> Regards,

>

> Jordi

>

> @jordipalet

>

>  

>

>  

>

>  

>

> El 17/9/20 9:11, "lucilla fornaro"

> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:

>

>  

>

> Hello Cathy,

>

>  

>

> You made a good observation. Afrinic only has 3% of world space,

> which means that there is not a real reason to worry. This

> transfer policy will finally put Afrinic in the same position as

> the other RIRs. 

>

> Section 5.7.3.3 <http://5.7.3.3/>: it is positive not to have an

> upper limit regarding the amount of transfer because this will

> facilitate the flow of addresses. And this will make the

> difference once the IPv4 resources will be depleted.

>

>  

>

> Most importantly, it is not up to Afrinic to offer a fraud

> prevention service, and this policy does not in any way encourage

> malicious or fraudulent activities. 

>

>  

>

>  

>

> best wishes,

>

>  

>

> Lucilla 

>

>  

>

> Il giorno gio 17 set 2020 alle ore 04:29 Cathie Jay

> <cathie.kay89 at gmail.com <mailto:cathie.kay89 at gmail.com>> ha scritto:

>

> Dear all,

>

> I fully support this policy which would allow a mutual transfer of

> resources between two or several African regions. It is a

> completely

> functional policy, which is primarily need-based. AFRINIC is

> the only

> RIR without a transfer policy and has only 3% of the world space.

> Therefore AFRINIC is gaining a lot more by adopting this policy. I

> would also add, after following the several discussions on the

> list,

> that this policy does not address internet fraud in any wat.

> What is

> enhanced here is the free flow of transfers.

>

> All best wishes,

>

> Cathie

>

>

> On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 7:03 PM dc at darwincosta.com

> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com> <dc at darwincosta.com

> <mailto:dc at darwincosta.com>> wrote:

> >

> >

> > On 15 Sep 2020, at 17:53, Daniel Yakmut via RPD

> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

> >

> > 

> > The highlighted hurdles can hold up the policy reaching a

> consensus on time to be relevant.

> >

> > Hence I see the simplicity of the intra RIR transfer as

> something that we can agree on and put to use as soon as

> possible. The free flow market makes it attractive and self

> controlling.

> >

> > Self controlling? What do you mean by that?

> >

> > I rather stick with Fernando’s last quote:

> >

> > This talk about "free flow market" is something that only

> benefits those willing to misuse IP space and profit from it

> instead of using it for its main propose which is ensure

> Internet can continuing developing in the region.

> >

> >

> > Simply,

> > Daniel

> >

> >

> > Darwin-.

> >

> >

> > On Sep 14, 2020 8:21 PM, "Mike Burns" <mike at iptrading.com

> <mailto:mike at iptrading.com>> wrote:

> >>

> >> Hello,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Apologies for yet more input from outside the region.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> We don’t want registries deciding good and evil uses for

> addresses, we want them accurately maintaining a list of

> unique numbers and their registrants, per the ancient RFC2050.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> The future is just about here and will arrive when AFRINIC

> reaches full exhaust. It’s time for the registries to

> recognize that conservation, one of the original purposes of

> the RIRs, is now performed automatically by the market. People

> don’t waste valuable resources as a rule.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Now is the time for the RIRs to concentrate on their only

> other purpose besides conservation, and that is accurate

> registration.  To meet the absolute requirement of unique

> registration, it’s important that RIRs do not implement

> policies that run counter to normal business activities like

> transfers, lest those policies engender things like

> unregistered leases or sales resulting in inaccurate

> registrations.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> To bring this discussion back to the point, what is the

> likelihood that an AFRINIC member will have the time to

> justify and acquire addresses from AFRINIC, sell them to

> another AFRINIC member while the free pool still exists, and

> go back to the free pool for another allocation?  Remember

> there is still not inter-regional policy, so the only buyer

> would be another AFRINIC member who would have to justify his

> need in order to purchase addresses, and he could simply

> utilize that same justification to get the addresses directly

> from AFRINIC.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> And this policy would still have to reach consensus and be

> implemented, making it that much farther away in time, as the

> remaining pool shrinks.

> >>

> >> I think it’s a moot point and resell limits as a rule are

> an impediment to a free-flowing market. And I say that as the

> original author of the 12 month time limit in ARIN policy.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Regards,

> >> Mike Burns

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> From: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com

> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>

> >> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 2:46 PM

> >> To: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

> >> Subject: Re: [rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer

> Policy (Draft-2)

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> On 14/09/2020 15:21, Ekaterina Kalugina wrote:

> >>

> >> <clip>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> In addition, I would argue it is not up to the RIR to

> decide who are “bad guys” and what are “malicious activities.”

> It is my conviction (please do correct me if I am wrong), that

> RIRs are merely registration entities and therefore cannot

> pass judgment of whether the receiver of transfer is a “good”

> or a “bad” guy. RIRs also should not have any interest for

> which purpose the resources are used as long as “technical

> need” is proven. Also, according to my knowledge of how the

> international economy works – it doesn’t matter if it is

> “good” or “bad” guys who are requesting the transfer of

> resources, long as there is a free flow of resources, and the

> commissions are being paid and taxed, it should only bolster

> the economy in the region.

> >>

> >> It is up to the RIR to oversee how resources are used and

> if they are not used for the proposes they were originally

> justified they should be recovered and re-assigned to other

> organizations who commit to use them how they should be: to

> make the Internet work, evolve and to get more people

> connected to it.

> >> If organizations are just holding IP space in order to make

> them worth more in order to sell them later and profit from it

> then they are not using this scarce resource as originally

> justified and they better be re-distributed to those who

> really need them.We are talking about a scarce shared owned

> resource and not a private properly which can be produced any

> anytime.

> >>

> >> If no justification would be necessary then it would be

> unfair with those who need the IP space to make the internet

> to work.

> >> Overall it is up to the RIR to determine the rules and

> conditions these resources be justified which is done on each

> regional policy forum. Furthermore each organization signs an

> contract with the RIR agreeing to bind to these rules in order

> to keep these resources.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> In any case, I think we need to abstract ourselves from

> using moral categories and focus on the important issues,

> which are, in my view, facilitating the economic development

> of the African region and putting AFRINIC on equal ground with

> other RIRs. As far as I can see, this policy does precisely

> that. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support it.

> >>

> >> Having an organization to justify the need of resources

> doesn't block any economic development in the region. It's

> actually the contrary.If people are allowed to hold resources

> without any justification then they will end up on the hands

> of those who can pay more and not on the hands of those who

> really need them, making it more difficult for the internet to

> progress in the region.

> >>

> >> Fernando

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Warmest wishes,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Ekaterina Kay Kalugina

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> On Mon, 14 Sep 2020, 09:51 JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD

> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:

> >>

> >> If we are asking all the organizations to justify the need

> and to have some wait time for more resources, why we want to

> have a different view on the transfers?

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> This only helps bad guys that want to use the resources for

> malicious activities and also makes brokers getting more

> commissions.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Regards,

> >>

> >> Jordi

> >>

> >> @jordipalet

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> El 14/9/20 5:30, "lucilla fornaro"

> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> escribió:

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I agree with your idea that basically corruption may occur

> (like in any other policy and in any other RIR) but there are

> instruments to avoid it and supervise.

> >>

> >> I believe that by not supporting organizations that need it

> due to possible dishonesty, we only generate damage and a

> dangerous precedent.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Lucilla

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Il giorno lun 14 set 2020 alle ore 11:49 Fernando Frediani

> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:

> >>

> >> This type of justification in my view is a justification

> that only benefits brokers and those who are willing to

> financially speculate from IP space instead of using it for

> what they should be, and goes on the opposite direction of

> other regions even after their respective exhaustion phases.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Fernando

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> On Sun, 13 Sep 2020, 23:38 lucilla fornaro,

> <lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com

> <mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto at gmail.com>> wrote:

> >>

> >> I think that with this proposal AFRINIC would fully be able

> to support any kind of organization in this uncertain period.

> In fact, due to the pandemic situation it is clear that

> unexpected problems may occur any time. AFRINIC should be able

> to transfer resources even to those that gave up assigned

> resources during the previous 12 months. Only this way it’s

> possible to facilitate the flow of resources from those who

> have them in excess ( and don’t use them) to those who need

> them and cannot afford to wait 12 months.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> The issue concerning workload is relevant because as the

> proposal supports, transfers won’t need approval from Afrinic.

> This and the section 5.7.5 will help a lot to make the overall

> working system more efficient.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I also think that “no upper limit regarding the amount of

> transfers” (section 5.7.3.3) will make a difference when IPv4

> will be definitely depleted.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Lucilla

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Il giorno ven 11 set 2020 alle ore 02:53 Fernando Frediani

> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> ha scritto:

> >>

> >> Releasing organizations from 12 months period doesn't make

> any sense and goes in the opposite way of good sense. So

> someone who gave up their just assigned resources transferring

> to someone else. What is the sense of it ?

> >>

> >> Smaller organizations can receive resources from AfricNic

> directly in Phase 2, so why would they need to make such

> transfers ? Also I don't think anyone is against allowing

> transfers Intra and Inter-RIR at the current stage. That's not

> the problem.

> >>

> >> I cannot understand what type of "issue" it can cause in

> terms of workload to the RIR and the time required for each

> request ? What does one thing have to do with the other ? If a

> request fulfill the minimal requirements there are no delays

> or extra workload do process the request.

> >>

> >> Regarding the "enrichment of its own financial pocket by

> Allocation Fees" this is still possible for any organizations

> who requests blocks according to Phase 2 so that statement is

> not correct either.

> >>

> >> There is a better well written proposal to allow Inter-RIR

> transfers under discussion which is and I invite others to

> support it instead which is "IPv4 Inter-RIR Resource Transfers

> (Comprehensive Scope) Draft-4 ". This one fulfill completely

> the need of Inter-RIR transfers for the region.

> >>

> >> Regards

> >> Fernando

> >>

> >> On 10/09/2020 11:31, lucilla fornaro wrote:

> >>

> >> Hello everyone,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> My name is Lucilla, I graduated in Law and I am currently

> attending a Master Degree in International Business. I would

> like to give my contribution to the discussion.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> For 5.7.3.2 <http://5.7.3.2>: The barrier of 12 months

> represents an issue for many entities that need to face

> unexpected problems. AFRINIC needs to allow a smoother and

> faster resource transfer to support both smaller

> organizations’ growth, as well as enrich its own financial

> pocket by the Allocation Fees that need to be covered by

> entities that are not member yet.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> And for what concerns other RIR like LACNIC, its policy is

> proving to create some issue. They, as well as the other RIRs,

> are facing a heavy workload because of the dilatation of time

> required for each request, that once approved need to be

> included into another waiting list due to quarantine reasons.

> These complications cannot be smoothly managed by AFRINIC due

> its shortage of workforce. The section 5.7.3.2 would make the

> overall working system more efficient. Furthermore, LACNIC

> entered phase 3 (back in 2017) of the IPv4 Exhaustion,

> meanwhile AFRINIC is facing a different situation.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I strongly support Section 5.7.3.3 <http://5.7.3.3>: it is

> positive not to have an upper limit regarding the amount of

> transfer because this will facilitate the flow of addresses.

> IPv4 addresses within the region will soon be depleted,

> transfer policy for IPv4 resources within and outside the

> region is strongly needed.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Lucilla

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> ________________________________

> >>

> >> Da: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com

> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>

> >> Inviato: Thursday, September 10, 2020 1:49:44 PM

> >> A: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>

> >> Oggetto: Re: [rpd] Revised Proposal | Resource Transfer

> Policy (Draft-2)

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> I see that point 5.7.3.2 goes in the opposite way of the

> obvious.

> >> If an organization gave up of its IP address space because

> it doesn't have usage for it anymore, why would it be allowed

> to receive more resources from AfriNic in short term ?

> >> Organizations receive IP space upon justification expected

> to be used to serve their customers in a certain time frame

> ahead. If sudden it realizes these addresses are not necessary

> anymore and transfer them to some other organization who

> really need them why would the source entity be allowed to

> receive even further space ?

> >> It is not correct to say it drags Afrinic service region

> backwards in comparison to other RIRs. LACNIC and ARIN for

> example have similar policies in regards this topic.

> >>

> >> 5.7.3.3. doesn't make sense either to be changed. The

> current text is correct and has a proper reason to be like

> this, otherwise it opens doors to fraud and to organizations

> to receive IP space form Afrinic and immediately to transfer

> to someone else who cannot receive them anymore under the

> current exhaustion rules.

> >>

> >> Therefore I oppose this proposal.

> >>

> >> Fernando

> >>

> >> On 09/09/2020 11:40, Ibeanusi Elvis wrote:

> >>

> >> Hello Everyone,

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> My Name is Ibeanusi Elvis. I am a Masters student of Global

> Law, Politics and Peace and Conflict Studies at the Tokyo

> University of Foreign Studies. Highly Interested in Internet

> Governance and Policy Making specifically within the AFRINIC

> service region.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> In regards to this proposal, I support the Proposed Section

> 5.7.3.2 as source entities are eligible to receive further

> IPv4 allocations or assignments from AFRINIC as long as it

> complies with current policy because a 12 month

> non-eligibility delay period after transfer approval

> diminishes, hinders and is detrimental to the operational,

> developmental and growth of businesses within the AFRINIC

> region. Hence, dragging the African continent and AFRINIC

> service region backwards in comparison with other RIRs.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Additionally, Section 5.7.3.2 and Section 5.7.5.3 ensures a

> swift communication between the transferring and receiving

> RIRs to enhance a smooth transfer and receive of allocations

> and assignments.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> Best regards,

> >>

> >> Ibeanusi Elvis .C.

> >>

> >>

> >>

> >> _______________________________________________

> >>

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> >>

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> >>

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> >>

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