[rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures

[Fernando Frediani]

I am not trying to impose anything. I am not even the author.
Instead please get used to deal with contrary arguments.

I already put several arguments against and why this is bad in any 
situation regardless of the region. Please refute them or avoid any 
other ad-hominen ones.

Thanks

On 30/08/2020 12:18, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:

> Ça c'est votre pont de vu. Pourquoi veux-tu imposer à la communauté 

> ton point de vu. C'est pas parce que toi tu penses que c'est pas bon 

> que ça doit s'imposer à tous. Si cela a été fait ailleurs et que ça 

> fonctionne, que dois-je comprendre par ton obstination à dire que 

> c'est mauvais ici ? Merci de clarifier. Et de considérer aussi le 

> point de vu des autre. Tu n'as pas la science infuse. Ni ne detitns la 

> totalité des savoirs.

>

> Cordialement

>

> Arnaud

>

> Le dim. 30 août 2020 à 14:34, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com 

> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a écrit :

>

>     I did not say such thing about Africa, please don't make up stuff.

>

>     I said very clearly elections by consensus are not good anywhere.

>     Why make up stuff to support your argument ?

>

>     It is exactly the opposite. "Election" by consensus leaves a great

>     margin for subjectivity and for fraud while election by vote

>     eliminates any subjectivity in the process if the process is

>     auditable.

>     This is how it's done in many other places and work as expected,

>     without margin for disputes.

>     Why have a type of "election" that can only serve for the propose

>     of margin for fraud and more disputes than the current ones ?

>

>     In my view the only fear of election by vote is from those who may

>     not have them.

>

>     Fernando

>

>     On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:

>>     La seule personne qui se répète c'est belle et bien toi Fernando.

>>     Tu semble dire qu'en Afrique on est pas capable de gérer une

>>     élection par consensus approximatif alors que d'autres régions le

>>     font et que c'est utopique, c'est un rêve, etc., pour ton

>>     information il existe bel et bien une forme d'élection qui

>>     s'apparente à une élection par consensus approximatif merci de

>>     suivre le lien suivant :

>>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting. Tu es le seul

>>     à vouloir exiger d'aller vers une élection direct, quand on sait

>>     tout ce que ça comporte moyen d'abus.

>>

>>     Cordialement

>>

>>     Arnaud

>>

>>     Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 17:28, Fernando Frediani

>>     <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a écrit :

>>

>>         You must be joking with it or trying to make tricks and I am

>>         having a serious discussion.

>>

>>

>>         I already answered your question very clearly in the previous

>>         message very clearly. If you wish to discuss it in a serious

>>         way please go straight to the point.

>>

>>

>>         Fernando

>>

>>

>>         On 29/08/2020 14:21, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:

>>>         Hi Fernando,

>>>

>>>         Let me not get involve at this stage in the discussions

>>>         about which model of election is good or bad for the PDPWG.

>>>

>>>         You have not answered my question. I am posting it again.

>>>

>>>         I would like to find out whether you agree that the election

>>>         by consent is used by working groups in RIPE region?

>>>

>>>         Please do justice to it.

>>>

>>>         Thanks

>>>

>>>

>>>         Marcus

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>         *From:* Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>>>         <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>>>         *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 2:29 PM

>>>         *To:* rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

>>>         <rpd at afrinic.net> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

>>>         *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG)

>>>         Guidelines and Procedures

>>>

>>>         Seems the authors are actually repeating the same arguments

>>>         and points.

>>>         I am instead putting the many reasons election by consensus

>>>         is not feasible, specially in this scenario we are going

>>>         through currently.

>>>

>>>         What doubt you have about this position regardless the RIR

>>>         or region ? Perhaps you should read the messages again.

>>>

>>>

>>>         Fernando

>>>

>>>

>>>         On 29/08/2020 10:31, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:

>>>>         Hi Fernando,

>>>>

>>>>         Thank you for your reaction but it appears you are not

>>>>         discussing but repeating yourself with no value add.

>>>>

>>>>         I would like to find out whether you agree that the

>>>>         election by consent is used by working groups in RIPE region?

>>>>

>>>>         Thanks

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>         Marcus

>>>>

>>>>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>         *From:* Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>>>>         <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>

>>>>         *Sent:* Friday, August 28, 2020 7:26 PM

>>>>         *To:* rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

>>>>         <rpd at afrinic.net> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>

>>>>         *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group

>>>>         (WG) Guidelines and Procedures

>>>>         Hello

>>>>

>>>>         If we are having all this trouble to define the next

>>>>         elections probably

>>>>         because there are multiple people interested in the next

>>>>         elections, how

>>>>         can we dream about any consensus ?

>>>>

>>>>         Consensus is for proposals, for a collaborative improving

>>>>         process that

>>>>         may take months or even more than an year, not for electing

>>>>         people.

>>>>         What is the fear to have a proper vote process ? 1 person 1

>>>>         vote and the

>>>>         candidate with most votes wins and servers the term. What

>>>>         can go wrong ?

>>>>         When one is elected with most votes and there are no

>>>>         signals of fraud

>>>>         there is no room for disputes and discussions.

>>>>

>>>>         Qualified people are people who effectively participate in the

>>>>         construction of the process, who are truly part of it and have

>>>>         commitment to it and not someone who is just passing in

>>>>         front of the

>>>>         door once in a lifetime.

>>>>

>>>>         Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet the possibility the Board

>>>>         to appoint

>>>>         interim Co-Chairs when necessary.

>>>>

>>>>         Fernando

>>>>

>>>>         On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA via RPD wrote:

>>>>         > Hello,

>>>>         >

>>>>         > Below are our  responses to last comments received on

>>>>         list on this proposal.

>>>>         >

>>>>         >

>>>>         > ###### Comment 1

>>>>         > Elections by consent is not for real world.

>>>>         > #######

>>>>         >

>>>>         > It does work for working groups chairs selection in RIPE

>>>>         region

>>>>         >

>>>>         > ##### Comment 2

>>>>         > It's just something too utopic.

>>>>         > #######

>>>>         >

>>>>         > As  utopic as  how “rough consensus” appear until you

>>>>         experiment it and cherish

>>>>         >

>>>>         > ###### Comment3

>>>>         > Election by vote where qualified people (with minimal

>>>>         requirements) vote and the candidate with the highest votes

>>>>         win, works in most places in the world with less margin 

>>>>         for further disputes

>>>>         > ######

>>>>         >

>>>>         > there are many models of elections with different ways of

>>>>         qualifying voters, determining the winners, etc....

>>>>         > What you described is just one the them. Not one fits all.

>>>>         >

>>>>         > Each  region adopts the best model for its PDP and how

>>>>         chairs/lead for the PDP activities are selected.

>>>>         >

>>>>         https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/

>>>>         >

>>>>         > One can see for example that in the case of LACNIC where,

>>>>         there is an electronic votes by those subscribed to the

>>>>         policy mailing list, the elections results “must” be

>>>>         ratified by consensus among those present  at the PPM as

>>>>         judged by the acting chairs. If results can’t be rectified,

>>>>         board appoint an interim chair.

>>>>         >

>>>>         > The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in the past  the model of 

>>>>         votes by those physical present at the PPM, until it showed

>>>>         its limit recently.

>>>>         >

>>>>         > Can you please elaborate on how the “qualified people”

>>>>         should be selected in the context the PDPWG for the online

>>>>         voting and how to prevent abuse and further disputes?

>>>>         >

>>>>         >

>>>>         > HTH

>>>>         >

>>>>         > —Alain

>>>>         >

>>>>         >

>>>>         > _______________________________________________

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>>>>         > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd

>>>>

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