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[rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG) Guidelines and Procedures
Fernando Frediani
fhfrediani at gmail.com
Sun Aug 30 15:22:30 UTC 2020
I am not trying to impose anything. I am not even the author.
Instead please get used to deal with contrary arguments.
I already put several arguments against and why this is bad in any
situation regardless of the region. Please refute them or avoid any
other ad-hominen ones.
Thanks
On 30/08/2020 12:18, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
> Ça c'est votre pont de vu. Pourquoi veux-tu imposer à la communauté
> ton point de vu. C'est pas parce que toi tu penses que c'est pas bon
> que ça doit s'imposer à tous. Si cela a été fait ailleurs et que ça
> fonctionne, que dois-je comprendre par ton obstination à dire que
> c'est mauvais ici ? Merci de clarifier. Et de considérer aussi le
> point de vu des autre. Tu n'as pas la science infuse. Ni ne detitns la
> totalité des savoirs.
>
> Cordialement
>
> Arnaud
>
> Le dim. 30 août 2020 à 14:34, Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com
> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>
> I did not say such thing about Africa, please don't make up stuff.
>
> I said very clearly elections by consensus are not good anywhere.
> Why make up stuff to support your argument ?
>
> It is exactly the opposite. "Election" by consensus leaves a great
> margin for subjectivity and for fraud while election by vote
> eliminates any subjectivity in the process if the process is
> auditable.
> This is how it's done in many other places and work as expected,
> without margin for disputes.
> Why have a type of "election" that can only serve for the propose
> of margin for fraud and more disputes than the current ones ?
>
> In my view the only fear of election by vote is from those who may
> not have them.
>
> Fernando
>
> On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>> La seule personne qui se répète c'est belle et bien toi Fernando.
>> Tu semble dire qu'en Afrique on est pas capable de gérer une
>> élection par consensus approximatif alors que d'autres régions le
>> font et que c'est utopique, c'est un rêve, etc., pour ton
>> information il existe bel et bien une forme d'élection qui
>> s'apparente à une élection par consensus approximatif merci de
>> suivre le lien suivant :
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting. Tu es le seul
>> à vouloir exiger d'aller vers une élection direct, quand on sait
>> tout ce que ça comporte moyen d'abus.
>>
>> Cordialement
>>
>> Arnaud
>>
>> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 17:28, Fernando Frediani
>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> a écrit :
>>
>> You must be joking with it or trying to make tricks and I am
>> having a serious discussion.
>>
>>
>> I already answered your question very clearly in the previous
>> message very clearly. If you wish to discuss it in a serious
>> way please go straight to the point.
>>
>>
>> Fernando
>>
>>
>> On 29/08/2020 14:21, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:
>>> Hi Fernando,
>>>
>>> Let me not get involve at this stage in the discussions
>>> about which model of election is good or bad for the PDPWG.
>>>
>>> You have not answered my question. I am posting it again.
>>>
>>> I would like to find out whether you agree that the election
>>> by consent is used by working groups in RIPE region?
>>>
>>> Please do justice to it.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 29, 2020 2:29 PM
>>> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>>> <rpd at afrinic.net> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG)
>>> Guidelines and Procedures
>>>
>>> Seems the authors are actually repeating the same arguments
>>> and points.
>>> I am instead putting the many reasons election by consensus
>>> is not feasible, specially in this scenario we are going
>>> through currently.
>>>
>>> What doubt you have about this position regardless the RIR
>>> or region ? Perhaps you should read the messages again.
>>>
>>>
>>> Fernando
>>>
>>>
>>> On 29/08/2020 10:31, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:
>>>> Hi Fernando,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your reaction but it appears you are not
>>>> discussing but repeating yourself with no value add.
>>>>
>>>> I would like to find out whether you agree that the
>>>> election by consent is used by working groups in RIPE region?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marcus
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 28, 2020 7:26 PM
>>>> *To:* rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>>>> <rpd at afrinic.net> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal: PDP Working Group
>>>> (WG) Guidelines and Procedures
>>>> Hello
>>>>
>>>> If we are having all this trouble to define the next
>>>> elections probably
>>>> because there are multiple people interested in the next
>>>> elections, how
>>>> can we dream about any consensus ?
>>>>
>>>> Consensus is for proposals, for a collaborative improving
>>>> process that
>>>> may take months or even more than an year, not for electing
>>>> people.
>>>> What is the fear to have a proper vote process ? 1 person 1
>>>> vote and the
>>>> candidate with most votes wins and servers the term. What
>>>> can go wrong ?
>>>> When one is elected with most votes and there are no
>>>> signals of fraud
>>>> there is no room for disputes and discussions.
>>>>
>>>> Qualified people are people who effectively participate in the
>>>> construction of the process, who are truly part of it and have
>>>> commitment to it and not someone who is just passing in
>>>> front of the
>>>> door once in a lifetime.
>>>>
>>>> Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet the possibility the Board
>>>> to appoint
>>>> interim Co-Chairs when necessary.
>>>>
>>>> Fernando
>>>>
>>>> On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA via RPD wrote:
>>>> > Hello,
>>>> >
>>>> > Below are our responses to last comments received on
>>>> list on this proposal.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ###### Comment 1
>>>> > Elections by consent is not for real world.
>>>> > #######
>>>> >
>>>> > It does work for working groups chairs selection in RIPE
>>>> region
>>>> >
>>>> > ##### Comment 2
>>>> > It's just something too utopic.
>>>> > #######
>>>> >
>>>> > As utopic as how “rough consensus” appear until you
>>>> experiment it and cherish
>>>> >
>>>> > ###### Comment3
>>>> > Election by vote where qualified people (with minimal
>>>> requirements) vote and the candidate with the highest votes
>>>> win, works in most places in the world with less margin
>>>> for further disputes
>>>> > ######
>>>> >
>>>> > there are many models of elections with different ways of
>>>> qualifying voters, determining the winners, etc....
>>>> > What you described is just one the them. Not one fits all.
>>>> >
>>>> > Each region adopts the best model for its PDP and how
>>>> chairs/lead for the PDP activities are selected.
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/
>>>> >
>>>> > One can see for example that in the case of LACNIC where,
>>>> there is an electronic votes by those subscribed to the
>>>> policy mailing list, the elections results “must” be
>>>> ratified by consensus among those present at the PPM as
>>>> judged by the acting chairs. If results can’t be rectified,
>>>> board appoint an interim chair.
>>>> >
>>>> > The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in the past the model of
>>>> votes by those physical present at the PPM, until it showed
>>>> its limit recently.
>>>> >
>>>> > Can you please elaborate on how the “qualified people”
>>>> should be selected in the context the PDPWG for the online
>>>> voting and how to prevent abuse and further disputes?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > HTH
>>>> >
>>>> > —Alain
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>> > RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>>>
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