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    <p>I am not trying to impose anything. I am not even the author.<br>
      Instead please get used to deal with contrary arguments.</p>
    <p>I already put several arguments against and why this is bad in
      any situation regardless of the region. Please refute them or
      avoid any other ad-hominen ones.<br>
    </p>
    <p>Thanks<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30/08/2020 12:18, Arnaud AMELINA
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGDMR_fkwgW4n6vNF=QSu+Nr01EnXSFoi4TObBxuVAGRt6AwiQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto">Ça c'est votre pont de vu. Pourquoi veux-tu
        imposer à la communauté ton point de vu. C'est pas parce que toi
        tu penses que c'est pas bon que ça doit s'imposer à tous. Si
        cela a été fait ailleurs et que ça fonctionne, que dois-je
        comprendre par ton obstination à dire que c'est mauvais ici ?
        Merci de clarifier. Et de considérer aussi le point de vu des
        autre. Tu n'as pas la science infuse. Ni ne detitns la totalité
        des savoirs. 
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Cordialement </div>
        <div dir="auto"><br>
        </div>
        <div dir="auto">Arnaud </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le dim. 30 août 2020 à 14:34,
          Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
            moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a
          écrit :<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div>
            <p>I did not say such thing about Africa, please don't make
              up stuff.</p>
            <p>I said very clearly elections by consensus are not good
              anywhere. Why make up stuff to support your argument ?</p>
            <p>It is exactly the opposite. "Election" by consensus
              leaves a great margin for subjectivity and for fraud while
              election by vote eliminates any subjectivity in the
              process if the process is auditable.<br>
              This is how it's done in many other places and work as
              expected, without margin for disputes.<br>
              Why have a type of "election" that can only serve for the
              propose of margin for fraud and more disputes than the
              current ones ?</p>
            <p>In my view the only fear of election by vote is from
              those who may not have them.<br>
            </p>
            <p>Fernando<br>
            </p>
            <div>On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">La seule personne qui se répète c'est
                  belle et bien toi Fernando. Tu semble dire qu'en
                  Afrique on est pas capable de gérer une élection par
                  consensus approximatif alors que d'autres régions le
                  font et que c'est utopique, c'est un rêve, etc., pour
                  ton information il existe bel et bien une forme
                  d'élection qui s'apparente à une élection par
                  consensus approximatif merci de suivre le lien suivant
                  : <a
                    href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting"
                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting</a>.
                  Tu es le seul à vouloir exiger d'aller vers une
                  élection direct, quand on sait tout ce que ça comporte
                  moyen d'abus. </div>
                <div dir="ltr"><br>
                </div>
                <div>Cordialement </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Arnaud </div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 29 août 2020
                  à 17:28, Fernando Frediani <<a
                    href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank"
                    rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                  a écrit :<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                  0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                  <div>
                    <p>You must be joking with it or trying to make
                      tricks and I am having a serious discussion.</p>
                    <p><br>
                    </p>
                    <p>I already answered your question very clearly in
                      the previous message very clearly. If you wish to
                      discuss it in a serious way please go straight to
                      the point.</p>
                    <p><br>
                    </p>
                    <p>Fernando</p>
                    <p><br>
                    </p>
                    <div>On 29/08/2020 14:21, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br>
                    </div>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                        Hi Fernando,
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Let me not get involve at this stage in the
                          discussions about which model of election is
                          good or bad for the PDPWG.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>You have not answered my question. I am
                          posting it again.</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>I would like to find out whether you agree
                          that the election by consent is used by
                          working groups in RIPE region?</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Please do justice to it. </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Thanks</div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div><br>
                        </div>
                        <div>Marcus</div>
                        <br>
                        <br>
                      </div>
                      <div>
                        <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                          <br>
                        </div>
                        <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
                        <div
                          id="m_-7392937921541422113gmail-m_1130370620668979900divRplyFwdMsg"
                          dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
                            face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
                            Fernando Frediani <a
                              href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                              target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                              moz-do-not-send="true"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
                            <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 29, 2020 2:29
                            PM<br>
                            <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                              target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                              moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
                            <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                              target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                              moz-do-not-send="true"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
                            <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal:
                            PDP Working Group (WG) Guidelines and
                            Procedures</font>
                          <div> </div>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Seems
                            the authors are actually repeating the same
                            arguments and points.<br>
                            I am instead putting the many reasons
                            election by consensus is not feasible,
                            specially in this scenario we are going
                            through currently.<br>
                          </p>
                          <p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">What
                            doubt you have about this position
                            regardless the RIR or region ? Perhaps you
                            should read the messages again.</p>
                          <p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
                          </p>
                          <p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Fernando<br>
                          </p>
                          <p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
                          </p>
                          <div>On 29/08/2020 10:31, Marcus K. G. Adomey
                            wrote:<br>
                          </div>
                          <blockquote type="cite">
                            <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                              Hi Fernando,
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Thank you for your reaction but it
                                appears you are not discussing but
                                repeating yourself with no value add. </div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>I would like to find out whether you
                                agree that the election by consent is
                                used by working groups in RIPE region?</div>
                              <div><br>
                              </div>
                              <div>Thanks</div>
                              <br>
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                              <br>
                            </div>
                            <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                              Marcus</div>
                            <div>
                              <div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
                                <br>
                              </div>
                              <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
                              <div
                                id="m_-7392937921541422113gmail-m_1130370620668979900x_divRplyFwdMsg"
                                dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
                                  face="Calibri, sans-serif"
                                  color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fernando
                                  Frediani <a
                                    href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
                                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
                                  <b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 28, 2020
                                  7:26 PM<br>
                                  <b>To:</b> <a
                                    href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
                                  <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                    moz-do-not-send="true"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
                                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy
                                  Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG)
                                  Guidelines and Procedures</font>
                                <div> </div>
                              </div>
                              <div><font size="2"><span
                                    style="font-size:11pt">
                                    <div>Hello<br>
                                      <br>
                                      If we are having all this trouble
                                      to define the next elections
                                      probably <br>
                                      because there are multiple people
                                      interested in the next elections,
                                      how <br>
                                      can we dream about any consensus ?<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Consensus is for proposals, for a
                                      collaborative improving process
                                      that <br>
                                      may take months or even more than
                                      an year, not for electing people.<br>
                                      What is the fear to have a proper
                                      vote process ? 1 person 1 vote and
                                      the <br>
                                      candidate with most votes wins and
                                      servers the term. What can go
                                      wrong ?<br>
                                      When one is elected with most
                                      votes and there are no signals of
                                      fraud <br>
                                      there is no room for disputes and
                                      discussions.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Qualified people are people who
                                      effectively participate in the <br>
                                      construction of the process, who
                                      are truly part of it and have <br>
                                      commitment to it and not someone
                                      who is just passing in front of
                                      the <br>
                                      door once in a lifetime.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet
                                      the possibility the Board to
                                      appoint <br>
                                      interim Co-Chairs when necessary.<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Fernando<br>
                                      <br>
                                      On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA
                                      via RPD wrote:<br>
                                      > Hello,<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > Below are our  responses to 
                                      last comments received on list on
                                      this proposal.<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > ###### Comment 1<br>
                                      > Elections by consent is not
                                      for real world.<br>
                                      > #######<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > It does work for working
                                      groups chairs selection in RIPE
                                      region<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > ##### Comment 2<br>
                                      > It's just something too
                                      utopic.<br>
                                      > #######<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > As  utopic as  how “rough
                                      consensus” appear until you
                                      experiment it and cherish<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > ###### Comment3<br>
                                      > Election by vote where
                                      qualified people (with minimal
                                      requirements) vote and the
                                      candidate with the highest votes
                                      win, works in most places in the
                                      world with less margin  for
                                      further disputes<br>
                                      > ######<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > there are many models of
                                      elections with different ways of
                                      qualifying voters, determining the
                                      winners, etc....<br>
                                      > What you described is just
                                      one the them. Not one fits all.<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > Each  region adopts the best
                                      model for its PDP and how
                                      chairs/lead for the PDP activities
                                      are selected.<br>
                                      > <a
href="https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/</a><br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > One can see for example that
                                      in the case of LACNIC where, there
                                      is an electronic votes by those
                                      subscribed to the policy mailing
                                      list, the elections results “must”
                                      be ratified by consensus among
                                      those present  at the PPM as
                                      judged by the acting chairs. If
                                      results can’t be rectified, board
                                      appoint an interim chair.<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in
                                      the past  the model of  votes by
                                      those physical present at the PPM,
                                      until it showed its limit
                                      recently.<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > Can you please elaborate on
                                      how the “qualified people” should
                                      be selected in the context the
                                      PDPWG for the online voting and
                                      how to prevent abuse and further
                                      disputes?<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > HTH<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      > —Alain<br>
                                      ><br>
                                      ><br>
                                      >
                                      _______________________________________________<br>
                                      > RPD mailing list<br>
                                      > <a
                                        href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
                                      > <a
                                        href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
                                      <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                      RPD mailing list<br>
                                      <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
                                      <a
                                        href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
                                    </div>
                                  </span></font></div>
                            </div>
                          </blockquote>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  _______________________________________________<br>
                  RPD mailing list<br>
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                    rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
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                    href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
                    rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
          </div>
          _______________________________________________<br>
          RPD mailing list<br>
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            rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
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            rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
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        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
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