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<p>I am not trying to impose anything. I am not even the author.<br>
Instead please get used to deal with contrary arguments.</p>
<p>I already put several arguments against and why this is bad in
any situation regardless of the region. Please refute them or
avoid any other ad-hominen ones.<br>
</p>
<p>Thanks<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 30/08/2020 12:18, Arnaud AMELINA
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAGDMR_fkwgW4n6vNF=QSu+Nr01EnXSFoi4TObBxuVAGRt6AwiQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="auto">Ça c'est votre pont de vu. Pourquoi veux-tu
imposer à la communauté ton point de vu. C'est pas parce que toi
tu penses que c'est pas bon que ça doit s'imposer à tous. Si
cela a été fait ailleurs et que ça fonctionne, que dois-je
comprendre par ton obstination à dire que c'est mauvais ici ?
Merci de clarifier. Et de considérer aussi le point de vu des
autre. Tu n'as pas la science infuse. Ni ne detitns la totalité
des savoirs.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Cordialement </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Arnaud </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le dim. 30 août 2020 à 14:34,
Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a
écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>I did not say such thing about Africa, please don't make
up stuff.</p>
<p>I said very clearly elections by consensus are not good
anywhere. Why make up stuff to support your argument ?</p>
<p>It is exactly the opposite. "Election" by consensus
leaves a great margin for subjectivity and for fraud while
election by vote eliminates any subjectivity in the
process if the process is auditable.<br>
This is how it's done in many other places and work as
expected, without margin for disputes.<br>
Why have a type of "election" that can only serve for the
propose of margin for fraud and more disputes than the
current ones ?</p>
<p>In my view the only fear of election by vote is from
those who may not have them.<br>
</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div>On 30/08/2020 10:02, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">La seule personne qui se répète c'est
belle et bien toi Fernando. Tu semble dire qu'en
Afrique on est pas capable de gérer une élection par
consensus approximatif alors que d'autres régions le
font et que c'est utopique, c'est un rêve, etc., pour
ton information il existe bel et bien une forme
d'élection qui s'apparente à une élection par
consensus approximatif merci de suivre le lien suivant
: <a
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_voting</a>.
Tu es le seul à vouloir exiger d'aller vers une
élection direct, quand on sait tout ce que ça comporte
moyen d'abus. </div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<div>Cordialement </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Arnaud </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 29 août 2020
à 17:28, Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>You must be joking with it or trying to make
tricks and I am having a serious discussion.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I already answered your question very clearly in
the previous message very clearly. If you wish to
discuss it in a serious way please go straight to
the point.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Fernando</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 29/08/2020 14:21, Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Hi Fernando,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me not get involve at this stage in the
discussions about which model of election is
good or bad for the PDPWG.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You have not answered my question. I am
posting it again.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to find out whether you agree
that the election by consent is used by
working groups in RIPE region?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Please do justice to it. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Marcus</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div
id="m_-7392937921541422113gmail-m_1130370620668979900divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
Fernando Frediani <a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 29, 2020 2:29
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy Proposal:
PDP Working Group (WG) Guidelines and
Procedures</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Seems
the authors are actually repeating the same
arguments and points.<br>
I am instead putting the many reasons
election by consensus is not feasible,
specially in this scenario we are going
through currently.<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">What
doubt you have about this position
regardless the RIR or region ? Perhaps you
should read the messages again.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">Fernando<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br>
</p>
<div>On 29/08/2020 10:31, Marcus K. G. Adomey
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Hi Fernando,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your reaction but it
appears you are not discussing but
repeating yourself with no value add. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to find out whether you
agree that the election by consent is
used by working groups in RIPE region?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Marcus</div>
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div
id="m_-7392937921541422113gmail-m_1130370620668979900x_divRplyFwdMsg"
dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif"
color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Fernando
Frediani <a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 28, 2020
7:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true"><rpd@afrinic.net></a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] Policy
Proposal: PDP Working Group (WG)
Guidelines and Procedures</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div><font size="2"><span
style="font-size:11pt">
<div>Hello<br>
<br>
If we are having all this trouble
to define the next elections
probably <br>
because there are multiple people
interested in the next elections,
how <br>
can we dream about any consensus ?<br>
<br>
Consensus is for proposals, for a
collaborative improving process
that <br>
may take months or even more than
an year, not for electing people.<br>
What is the fear to have a proper
vote process ? 1 person 1 vote and
the <br>
candidate with most votes wins and
servers the term. What can go
wrong ?<br>
When one is elected with most
votes and there are no signals of
fraud <br>
there is no room for disputes and
discussions.<br>
<br>
Qualified people are people who
effectively participate in the <br>
construction of the process, who
are truly part of it and have <br>
commitment to it and not someone
who is just passing in front of
the <br>
door once in a lifetime.<br>
<br>
Afrinic PDP doesn't even have yet
the possibility the Board to
appoint <br>
interim Co-Chairs when necessary.<br>
<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
On 28/08/2020 15:16, ALAIN AINA
via RPD wrote:<br>
> Hello,<br>
><br>
> Below are our responses to
last comments received on list on
this proposal.<br>
><br>
><br>
> ###### Comment 1<br>
> Elections by consent is not
for real world.<br>
> #######<br>
><br>
> It does work for working
groups chairs selection in RIPE
region<br>
><br>
> ##### Comment 2<br>
> It's just something too
utopic.<br>
> #######<br>
><br>
> As utopic as how “rough
consensus” appear until you
experiment it and cherish<br>
><br>
> ###### Comment3<br>
> Election by vote where
qualified people (with minimal
requirements) vote and the
candidate with the highest votes
win, works in most places in the
world with less margin for
further disputes<br>
> ######<br>
><br>
> there are many models of
elections with different ways of
qualifying voters, determining the
winners, etc....<br>
> What you described is just
one the them. Not one fits all.<br>
><br>
> Each region adopts the best
model for its PDP and how
chairs/lead for the PDP activities
are selected.<br>
> <a
href="https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">
https://www.apnic.net/community/participate/sigs/sig-guidelines/chair-elections/rir-comparison-table/</a><br>
><br>
> One can see for example that
in the case of LACNIC where, there
is an electronic votes by those
subscribed to the policy mailing
list, the elections results “must”
be ratified by consensus among
those present at the PPM as
judged by the acting chairs. If
results can’t be rectified, board
appoint an interim chair.<br>
><br>
> The AFRINIC PDPWG adopted in
the past the model of votes by
those physical present at the PPM,
until it showed its limit
recently.<br>
><br>
> Can you please elaborate on
how the “qualified people” should
be selected in the context the
PDPWG for the online voting and
how to prevent abuse and further
disputes?<br>
><br>
><br>
> HTH<br>
><br>
> —Alain<br>
><br>
><br>
>
_______________________________________________<br>
> RPD mailing list<br>
> <a
href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
> <a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
rel="noreferrer" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
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