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[rpd] RPD Digest, Vol 166, Issue 83

BINEMO SHADIMIADI Jean Guelord guelordshadimiadi at gmail.com
Tue Jul 21 16:30:47 UTC 2020


Owen, peut être tu a mal interprèter me propos



Le mar. 21 juil. 2020 à 18:20, <rpd-request at afrinic.net> a écrit :


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> Today's Topics:

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> 1. Re: RPD Digest, Vol 166, Issue 78 (Owen DeLong)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 09:19:57 -0700

> From: Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>

> To: Paclab <ezekielj20 at gmail.com>

> Cc: rpd at afrinic.net

> Subject: Re: [rpd] RPD Digest, Vol 166, Issue 78

> Message-ID: <A29D0311-4D0D-4E13-83B7-91451DF27137 at delong.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

>

> I don?t see the correlation. This is a small debate over how exactly to

> address the issues while staying as close

> to the procedures in the CPM as possible. It?s not a big deal or anything

> sufficient to justify cancelling the online

> meeting or delaying it for an unknown period of time.

>

> Owen

>

>

> > On Jul 21, 2020, at 07:19 , Paclab <ezekielj20 at gmail.com> wrote:

> >

> > I forsaw this happening, that's why I was insisting on the cancellation

> on online meeting till the pandemic is over

> >

> > On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 6:59 AM <rpd-request at afrinic.net <mailto:

> rpd-request at afrinic.net>> wrote:

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> > Today's Topics:

> >

> > 1. Re: Co-Chair Election Process (Fernando Frediani)

> >

> >

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Message: 1

> > Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 09:58:31 -0300

> > From: Fernando Frediani <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:

> fhfrediani at gmail.com>>

> > To: "rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy" <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:

> rpd at afrinic.net>>

> > Subject: Re: [rpd] Co-Chair Election Process

> > Message-ID: <2606ca05-56e7-38d3-7168-819f7db79b09 at gmail.com <mailto:

> 2606ca05-56e7-38d3-7168-819f7db79b09 at gmail.com>>

> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

> >

> > On 21/07/2020 02:06, Owen DeLong wrote:

> > > Yes, but that proposal could be to vary the chair election process

> > > just as much as to vary anything else in the document.

> >

> > Yes, as long it is conducted under a policy proposal discussion

> > following 3.6 no problem at all.

> >

> > Now the main problem I guess is to reach consensus on something as many

> > people seem too afraid of anything. So why I suggested something

> > strictly simple that resolves the current scenario, even temporarily

> > until we can have a proper proposal discussed later that resolves it

> > long term.

> >

> > However some people keep suggesting to extend the Co-Chair term without

> > willing to go through a simple show of hands in a remote event as the

> > PDP says. So how we suppose to do this? Regardless the type of job the

> > person is doing there is not other way to extend his term other than the

> > process outlined in the PDP.

> >

> > I don't see any other ways out of it.

> >

> > Fernando

> >

> > >

> > > Owen

> > >

> > >> Fernando

> > >>

> > >> On 21/07/2020 00:05, Owen DeLong wrote:

> > >>>

> > >>>

> > >>>> On Jul 20, 2020, at 6:22 PM, Fernando Frediani

> > >>>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com> <mailto:

> fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>> wrote:

> > >>>>

> > >>>> Hi Owen. Sorry I don't really read the 3.6 the same way as you. 3.6

> > >>>> in my view wasn't thought for situation like this. It's being glued

> > >>>> for the occasion that's not the case. 3.6 is about how the

> > >>>> proposals are conducted, reviewed and passed within this forum in a

> > >>>> exceptional situation (pretty much where we are). All points

> > >>>> mentioned there have to do with proposals. We are not discussing or

> > >>>> advancing a proposal right now.

> > >>>>

> > >>>

> > >>> That?s your special interpretation. It?s not what a plain english

> > >>> reading of the language says.

> > >>>

> > >>> 1.The PDP is in the document containing 3.6. The PDP is a process.

> > >>> 2.The co-chair election process is in the document containing 3.6.

> > >>> The co-chair election process is a process.

> > >>> 3.3.6 says ?The process outlined in this document??.

> > >>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> What CAN actually be done within 3.6 is someone to properly present

> > >>>> a proposal to amend the PDP and fix the issues we are discussing

> > >>>> here and then have this proposal treated under 3.6 (with no less

> > >>>> than 4 weeks including the Last Call - which coincides with your

> > >>>> point number 3 below).

> > >>>>

> > >>> I suppose that could also work, though it?s rather indirect and adds

> > >>> (unnecessary IMHO) complexity.

> > >>>>

> > >>>> In my opinion proposal AFPUB-2019-GEN-007-DRAFT01 is ready for it,

> > >>>> but I guess that may not reach consensus. So a much shorter

> > >>>> proposal with just the essential we need to resolve this situation

> > >>>> is the way to go under 3.6. Would that match with what you are

> > >>>> trying to put ?

> > >>>>

> > >>>

> > >>> IMHO, AFPUB-2019-GEN-007-DRAFT01 is a fatally flawed proposal and I

> > >>> would not support it as currently written.

> > >>>

> > >>> I think a much more direct proposal to clarify an expanded scope of

> > >>> 3.6 (closer to my interpretation instead of your rather narrow

> > >>> interpretation) would be the most likely to gain consensus, frankly.

> > >>> I think such is unnecessary, but _IF_ you insist on the (oddly)

> > >>> narrow interpretation of 3.6 you have put forth, then?

> > >>>

> > >>> Owen

> > >>>

> > >>>>

> > >>>> Fernando

> > >>>>

> > >>>> On 20/07/2020 21:52, Owen DeLong wrote:

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>> On Jul 20, 2020, at 10:00 AM, Fernando Frediani

> > >>>>>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com> <mailto:

> fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>> wrote:

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>> On 20/07/2020 13:39, Owen DeLong wrote:

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> <clip>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> This is an absurd claim. The standard (as you mention below) is

> > >>>>>>> a ?raise of hands? vote. This mechanism even in person does not

> > >>>>>>> allow people to verify that their vote was cast correctly, nor

> > >>>>>>> is it fully auditable (indeed, it has no audit trail and is not

> > >>>>>>> at all audible).

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Placing more stringent requirements than exist on the current

> > >>>>>>> system as an acceptance criteria for a system deployed urgently

> > >>>>>>> in a time of crisis makes little sense to me.

> > >>>>>> You are not making the things easier given the circumstances and

> > >>>>>> all has been been discussed here.

> > >>>>>> What is being said is analogous to raise of hand and is also a

> > >>>>>> indisputable way to eliminate most possible fraud that have been

> > >>>>>> pointed.

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> It is not my goal to make things easier for you or even

> > >>>>> necessarily easier in general.

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> It is my goal to achieve the best possible outcome through a

> > >>>>> mechanism that comes as close to applying the PDP rules as

> possible.

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> 4 - In order to either choose another Co-Chair or to extend the

> > >>>>>>>> current one term there must be a vote with raise of hands.

> > >>>>>>>> There is no other way out of the PDP this can be done.

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> This statement ignores CPM section 3.6:

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> 3.6??Varying the Process

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> The process outlined in this document may vary in the case

> > >>>>>>> of an emergency. Variance is for use when a one-time waiving

> > >>>>>>> of some provision of this document is required.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> 1. The decision to vary the process is taken by a Working

> > >>>>>>> Group Chair.

> > >>>>>>> 2. There must be an explanation about why the variance is

> > >>>>>>> needed.

> > >>>>>>> 3. The review period, including the Last Call, shall not be

> > >>>>>>> less than four weeks.

> > >>>>>>> 4. If there is consensus, the policy is approved and it

> > >>>>>>> must be presented at the next Public Policy Meeting.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Clearly this is the kind of exceptional circumstance in which

> > >>>>>>> some variance could be justified.

> > >>>>>> Sorry I don't see 3.6 applying to this situation on *any* of

> > >>>>>> points mentioned. This section is about how the policies

> > >>>>>> discussion, review, last call, etc work? 1) As I understand this

> > >>>>>> decision is not up to the Chairs to take 2)Yes, we are working on

> > >>>>>> the explanation, but who will give it ? Normally is whoever take

> > >>>>>> the decision. 3) Nothing to do with elections 4) Nothing to do

> > >>>>>> with the current scenario. There is no proper policy under

> > >>>>>> discussion to be approved, only a discussion of what to do about

> > >>>>>> the next elections.

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> It applies to all of the CPM ("The process outlined in this

> > >>>>> document may vary??).

> > >>>>> 1. If not the co-chairs, then who?

> > >>>>> 2. I think the explanation is well understood? ?Because in person

> > >>>>> meeting during the COVID crisis is impossible.?

> > >>>>> 3. I?m not so sure about this. Whatever election process we decide

> > >>>>> on should be put to a final community comment

> > >>>>> period of some form. I see no reason that should be less than 4

> weeks.

> > >>>>> 4. So you?re saying that the determination of how to (or whether

> > >>>>> to) conduct co-chair elections should be made

> > >>>>> by some other method than community consensus and should not be

> > >>>>> considered policy at least for this meeting?

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> How does that work?

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> I still say that a (virtual) raising of hands using the

> > >>>>>>> mechanisms available in nearly every conferencing system capable

> > >>>>>>> of supporting

> > >>>>>>> this meeting has the following advantages:

> > >>>>>>> q

> > >>>>>>> 1.Only meeting attendees may vote.

> > >>>>>>> 2.Botting your meeting attendance would be reasonably difficult,

> > >>>>>>> so it would be difficult for a person to stuff the ballot box.

> > >>>>>>> 3.It does meet the literal requirements of the existing PDP.

> > >>>>>>> 4.If we place reasonable bounds on meeting registration, we can

> > >>>>>>> avoid the so-called ?sleeper cell? effect that some have

> > >>>>>>> put forth as a concern. (Personally, I think this is less likely

> > >>>>>>> in a virtual meeting anyway).

> > >>>>>>> 5.If we place reasonable bounds on meeting registration, we also

> > >>>>>>> manage to prevent (2) from being a concern.

> > >>>>>>> 6.By ?reasonable bounds?, I mean pick a date certain in the past

> > >>>>>>> by which one must have been subscribed to RPD.

> > >>>>>>> Each email subscribed to RPD is entitled to one corresponding

> > >>>>>>> meeting registration if they choose to. No subscribed

> > >>>>>>> email, no registration for the meeting.

> > >>>>>> I quiet like this idea, and that is exactly which is under

> > >>>>>> discussion in one of the policies that should advance, but this

> > >>>>>> is not backed in any part of PDP as far as I know as the moment.

> > >>>>>> Who will determine what date is this ?

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> This would most certainly be a variation of the PDP to meet the

> > >>>>> emergency as it exists which would be permitted under 3.6, so, yes,

> > >>>>> my argument here depends on my argument above which you have

> > >>>>> claimed you are not buying. However, hopefully with my expansions

> on

> > >>>>> the topic above, I can perhaps convince you to change your mind

> > >>>>> and recognize that without something like that, we literally box

> > >>>>> ourselves into a situation with no way forward until such time as

> > >>>>> we can arrange an in-person meeting. Personally, I think that?s

> > >>>>> far from the best outcome.

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>>> 7.My suggestions for the date certain would be the first day of

> > >>>>>>> the originally scheduled in person AIS 2020 (May 31) or

> > >>>>>>> the originally scheduled first day of the public policy meeting

> > >>>>>>> (June 8 IIRC).

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>> This would make sense if there was basis for it, but currently

> > >>>>>> there is AFAIK.

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>> The basis for it is 3.6. Read the CPM carefully read 3.6. It?s not

> > >>>>> rocket science. The CPM describes all of the policies, the PDP,

> > >>>>> and the co-chair election process within the one document. Section

> > >>>>> 3.6 provides for variance of the process[sic] should be processes

> > >>>>> within

> > >>>>> the document. That includes the co-chair election process unless

> > >>>>> you can show me why it does not.

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>> Owen

> > >>>>>

> > >>>>>> Fernando

> > >>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> If anyone has a reason they don?t think this is viable, please

> > >>>>>>> express it. So far, I?ve seen lots of calls for other solutions,

> > >>>>>>> but this

> > >>>>>>> seems to be the approach with the fewest drawbacks and which can

> > >>>>>>> easily be implemented in time.

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>> Owen

> > >>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> Regards

> > >>>>>>>> Fernando

> > >>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>> On 20/07/2020 03:06, Daniel Yakmut wrote:

> > >>>>>>>>> Dear All,

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> We arrive at the airport and I will be turning the simple

> > >>>>>>>>> matter placed on the table into a circus. The simple matter

> was:

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> 1. We will have AIS 2020 online and in September.

> > >>>>>>>>> 2. A Co-chair's ?tenure has already ended. So an electronic

> > >>>>>>>>> election is being proposed as part of the AIS 2020 Agenda. The

> > >>>>>>>>> question is, is this possible?

> > >>>>>>>>> 3. It is a fact that the Co-chair is currently serving within

> > >>>>>>>>> an extended period.

> > >>>>>>>>> 4. We now agree that the introduction of e-voting is

> > >>>>>>>>> inevitable, as demonstrated by the pandemic.

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> However it is clear that

> > >>>>>>>>> 1. We are going to have an online meeting , as nobody has

> > >>>>>>>>> disagreed to that.

> > >>>>>>>>> 2. There is a strong advocacy, for a process to include

> > >>>>>>>>> e-voting in the Region, but the timing is short. Therefore we

> > >>>>>>>>> need to commence the plan of creating an enabling atmosphere

> > >>>>>>>>> to integrate e-voting.

> > >>>>>>>>> 3. We need to ratify the extended period for a co-chair

> > >>>>>>>>> tentatively for 12months. Which he has spent a month or so

> > >>>>>>>>> already.

> > >>>>>>>>> 4. Ensure we have an acceptable e-voting system ready for the

> > >>>>>>>>> next date of election.

> > >>>>>>>>> 5. Let agreed clearly on this simple issue and prepare for the

> > >>>>>>>>> coming meeting.

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Simply

> > >>>>>>>>> Daniel

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2020 11:20 PM, "Fernando Frediani"

> > >>>>>>>>> <fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com> <mailto:

> fhfrediani at gmail.com <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>>> wrote:

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> I have read this message and several questions come to

> > >>>>>>>>> mind as for example:

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> - What basis was used to say "it was overwhelmingly"

> > >>>>>>>>> rejected ?

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> - Who actuallty represents the "current" community to

> > >>>>>>>>> state it was "totally rejected" ?

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> - Whats basis was used to say that it would not work in

> > >>>>>>>>> the region if that works in several other places and RIRs

> > >>>>>>>>> including, with auditable systems ?

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> - Whats basis is used to say rhe community that voted for

> > >>>>>>>>> the current Co-Chair in Kampla has the same confidence in

> > >>>>>>>>> him and that he would win ? It seems more a personal wish

> > >>>>>>>>> than anything based on fact or logic.

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> - Even in order to extend the current Co-Chair term the

> > >>>>>>>>> PDP MUST be followed and there are no other ways written

> > >>>>>>>>> there other than another vote. Otherwise how can this be

> > >>>>>>>>> done ?

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Fernando

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> On Sun, 19 Jul 2020, 18:08 Emem William,

> > >>>>>>>>> <dwizard65 at gmail.com <mailto:dwizard65 at gmail.com> <mailto:

> dwizard65 at gmail.com <mailto:dwizard65 at gmail.com>>> wrote:

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Dear All,

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> I can? recollect that a similar proposal was proposed

> > >>>>>>>>> as a policy and it was overwhelmingly rejected in

> > >>>>>>>>> Angola. The current community totally rejected the

> > >>>>>>>>> policy no one except the authors supported the idea

> > >>>>>>>>> because we know it can't work in this region. Using

> > >>>>>>>>> online voting now would be like passing the policy

> > >>>>>>>>> using the backdoor. Am sure Jordie would like this

> > >>>>>>>>> idea and hence his enthusiasm. However my candid

> > >>>>>>>>> opinion is that we can't do this. The most appropriate

> > >>>>>>>>> way forward is to allow the Co chair who has been

> > >>>>>>>>> doing a fantastic job to continue for another 12

> > >>>>>>>>> months or till the next face to face meeting. The

> > >>>>>>>>> community that voted him in Kampala still have

> > >>>>>>>>> confidence in him. In any case even with an online

> > >>>>>>>>> election he would still likely win but I don't want

> > >>>>>>>>> polices to be passed through the back door. Therefore

> > >>>>>>>>> I think the most appropriate way for this has been

> > >>>>>>>>> suggested as an extension for the co-chair who's seat

> > >>>>>>>>> would have been contested.

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Cheers.

> > >>>>>>>>>

> > >>>>>>>>> Emem E. William

> > >>>>>>>>>

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