[rpd] Decisions on policy proposals discussed during themeeting

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ]

Hi Arnaud,

 

 

 

El 24/12/19 14:21, "Arnaud AMELINA" <amelnaud at gmail.com> escribió:

 

My comments inline,

 

Le dim. 22 déc. 2019 à 21:47, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> a écrit :

I agree with Fernando.

 

I think the important point here is that authors should be cooperative with the community if they really want to get a proposal advancing and reaching consensus. Otherwise authors aren’t doing their job.

 

NOT All comments or issue raised need to be accommodated; they can be addressed. It is always  important for the proponent and the working group to work toward consensual resolution to 

 

Right, not always all the issues can be accommodated. According to the definition of consensus, it can be reached even in that case, if the objections do not remain, like in: “I’m not happy with this, but I can accept it”.

 

issues.  Cochairs have to moderate  discussions and make sure issues are addressed and accommodated only when required.

 

I don’t think cochairs need to moderate the discussion. They can try to organize it a bit, but that’s it.

 

Cochairs  can do this when totally neutral.

 

Cochairs have the very difficult task to see if there are objections that: 1) have not been addressed, 2) have not been justified, and 3) the objections remain with a valid justification.

 

The current situation of authors vs working group members should be avoided. To just accept changes to make people HAPPY to advance proposal  is not healthy  and should also  be discouraged.

 

That’s not the goal. Authors need to heard the inputs, and debate them if they don’t agree, in order to refute the objections, or otherwise, concede and evolve the text.

 

 As an example, i noticed abuse contact proposal was updated twice before the meeting, but still got rejected. Does it means author not listening to the community?

-----

 2nd November 2019

Version 4: AFPUB-2018-GEN-001-DRAFT04

Overall simplification of the text

 

22nd November 2019

Version 5: AFPUB-2018-GEN-001-DRAFT05

Further clarifications of the text

 

v4 was published by mistake, as I was discussing some details with the staff, but they understood that it was a version to publish.

 

Despite that, this proposal reached consensus in several regions, and in others there is something similar already.

 

If you follow the discussions and updates, you will see that I’ve accommodated the text to the community inputs. The major problem in my opinion in the last meeting, is that several people was understanding that the proposal aims for AFRINIC to resolve the abuse cases, which is not the case, and I don’t think it is mention by the proposal. Because those objections are not justified and I refuted them, I was expecting that the chairs will declare consensus on it, but it didn't happen.

 

So, in this case my fault was assuming that the people has read the text before and understood it, and clearly not explaining in the presentation that it is not asking AFRINIC to resolve the abuse cases, but just to ensure that the abuse contacts are valid and up-to-date.

 

I think it deserves some discussion in the list, may be make sure that the text is clearer and of course review the minutes and video in case I’m missing anything else before publishing a new version.

 

But in no way I will present “the same version”. I must do something to improve it and also improve my presentation.

 

 

 

As I said before, if a proposal is not updated with the inputs from the community, chairs don’t need to drop a proposal, but they can just not give the proposal time in the agenda.

 

With a good PDP and correct working group  practices, documents advance  as they should and qualify to  be put on agenda for PPM.  They  could also just be presented as mean to address pending issues and not  for seeking consensus... 

 

If there is time in the agenda, I will agree with that. When there is no discussion in the list, it may be good presenting the same version, and clearly stating that the presentation aim is not to declare consensus or not, but to obtain inputs. This must be done in such way that you present what are the open issues and seek for how to resolve them.

 

We do this continuously in IETF, for example.

 

If authors want to play trick with a new version, but not addressing community inputs … it is perfectly reasonable and I will say part of the chairs job, not allocate time for a proposal that has been updated only with editorial changes.

 

Ouf... I find this statement very funny coming from someone who rejected cochairs ability to request staff analysis when needed  and  argued that staff should provide staff analysis for any changes.

 

You’re taking all what I say literally, and not understanding that in emails you try to make it short. Clearly, I don’t think a version with editorial changes “only” needs a new impact analysis. It will be sufficient something like “the previous impact analysis is still valid, as the changes are editorial” or even “this version addresses some of our editorial concerns from our previous impact analysis”.

 

Time will come for us to be a bit more coherent 

 

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

--

Arnaud 

 

 

 

El 22/12/19 20:54, "Fernando Frediani" <fhfrediani at gmail.com> escribió:

 

 

On Sun, 22 Dec 2019, 16:37 Owen DeLong, <owen at delong.com> wrote:

 

 

Some times a proposal can be modified to address objections to certain portions. Some times a proposal’s core intent just isn’t compatible with

the will of [some significant fraction] of the community. In this latter case, the proposal should be dropped after reasonable debate. Unfortunately,

authors wish to substitute their opinion for the collective wisdom of the community and continue to push for this proposal against all objections.

 

Hold on there !

I do not support this proposal specifically,  but calling certain objections "a wisdom of the community" isn't the most appropriate term to use in my view.

Sometimes there are good points raised in nearly equal quality or arguments for both sides and in these cases it is simply impossible to reach consensus. 

In such cases I wouldn't call one of the sides of collective wisdom really.

 

Fernando

 

10.    Internet Number Resources review by AFRINIC draft8 (Co-Chairs Decision: No Consensus )

https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2016-gen-001-d8#proposal

This proposal has not reached consensus after many iterations spanning over 8 iterations spanning over 3 years (from May 2016). 

The proposal sets a framework for AFRINIC to conduct reviews/audits of resource utilization by members (to ensure efficient and appropriate use).

•       Audits can be random or selected (by AFRINIC) or reported (by whistle-blower).

•       Resources not complying are recovered and can be reallocated.

 

The Co-chairs are considering dropping this policy entirely because it has been around for some time without achieving consensus. It is also noticed that the authors failed to attempt to address a lot of concerns. 

   Co-chairs have spent a lot of time on this proposal (over the last 1 month) reviewing comments and responses from previous meetings and believe that the authors did not address or attempt to address most of the major issues raised in the latest version. 

 It strange that Co-chairs spent so much time on this proposal, and was not possible to produce the list of issues not addressed  before or at the PPM to help the discussions.

 

If nothing else, the following unaddressed issue pretty well covers the entire problem:

 

This proposal is an attack vector which allows individuals to weaponize AfriNIC against organizations, providing a disproportionate effect on larger organizations with very little cost or repercussion to the potential attacker.

 

It is unlikely that this issue can be addressed in any proposal meeting authors’ clear intent and authors have repeatedly ignored this issue in their multiple updates to the proposal.

 

There are other objections which remain, but this is the one I believe is least likely to ever be sufficiently addressed.

 

I am also glad to see the expression "major issues" used by Co-chairs while we were told there no such thing as suggested in PDP-bis. Can we have your definition of "major objection”

 

Personally, I believe the co-chairs use of that term is in error as the term remains undefined.

 

The terms which should (IMHO) be considered are substantive and sustained objections. (sustained as in continuing, not as in the ruling of a judge over an objection).

 

The above core objection is both substantive (in that it strikes at the heart of the proposal and has been expressed by multiple members of the community representing  several organizations.

 

The CPM allows us to vary the process in the best interest of the community hence we shall work with the authors of this proposal in the coming months to see if there can be a way forward on this proposal. 

There must be a way forward  on this proposal  the 8 iterations during the 3 years matured  the proposal well enough  as you can see in the revision history.

It is important to keep in mind that all objections must addressed, but not all can acommodated 

 

Why does there have to be a way forward? I would argue that after 8 iterations in 3 years, the fact that the proposal still cannot achieve anything resembling consensus is evidence that the proposal is fundamentally incompatible with the desires fo the community and it is time to give up on int.

 

It is also important to keep in mind that no proposal has a right to consensus. In most regions, something approximating 50% of all proposals fail to achieve consensus and end up abandoned. The long lived failure of this proposal is a rare example of a proposal which has failed and yet remains a focus of the community.

 

A decision shall be made based on this before the next policy meeting to avoid wasting the limited and precious time during the policy meeting. 

There are ways of better utilization  the precious  time during PPM: reduce the DDoS  on the PDP  with the numerous last minute  proposals, reduce number of competite proposals, moderate and encourage discussions on proposals, keep issue list and  drive discussions to closure. 

 

Save the last one, all of your suggestions would involve limiting free speech and disenfranchising proposal authors.

 

I agree that having the co-chairs track the open issues with each proposal and driving discussions towards closure would be useful.

However, closure does NOT necessarily mean consensus. It might mean a determination that a given policy has little or no chance of achieving consensus.

 

Currently, the PDP provides no mechanism for the co-chairs to address this problem. I believe that an ability to abandon proposals which have been to at least two meetings without achieving consensus should be added to the PDP.

 

A proposal cannot continue to have an infinite loop hence the need to vary the process.      

 We shall be grateful if you could vary the process  using section 3.6 of the CPM, as you will arrange for the proposal  to be fast tracked and adopted  online before being presented at the next PPM.

 

How can this occur… The proposal has nothing at all resembling consensus. Multiple objections remain, including the above objection which is fundamentally incompatible with the authors intent.

 

Varying the process is one thing. Abandoning it altogether in favor of bypassing the need for consensus would be outrageous.

 

Owen

 

 

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