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[rpd] New Policy Proposal Received - "IPv4 Inter-RIR Legacy Resource Transfers (Comprehensive Scope) AFPUB-2019-v4-002-DRAFT01"
Mark Elkins
mje at posix.co.za
Mon Aug 19 09:49:10 UTC 2019
Hi Jordi,
I fully support your transfer proposals..
I agree that there are some fundamentalists out there but please don't
let that stop you. Please keep the two proposals alive (the one for
legacy transfers only - which if passed - will prove you are correct;
and the other that covers non-legacy address space).
If we don't have such transfer proposals - then growth will stagnate in
our region. I don't want to see that. I want to see continued growth!
On 2019/08/19 11:14, Mike Silber wrote:
> Hi Jordi
>
> While I support the proposal, I think it may be time to give up.
>
> This has turned into a debate of “principles" and no facts or logic
> will be allowed to get in its way.
>
> Once we descend to this level - progress is impossible and the
> fundamentalists have won.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
>> On 19 Aug 2019, at 08:49, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD
>> <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Fernando,
>> Just look at numbers. Those are not hypothesis, but facts. The
>> numbers show that the resources are going from the regions that have
>> “more IPv4” and have deployed “more IPv6” to the other regions.
>> There is no possible explanation why this will become different if
>> Afrinic adopts and inter-RIR policy. Do you think ARIN suddently will
>> stop deploying IPv6 and look for IPv4 addresses form Africa? No sense!
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jordi
>>
>> @jordipalet
>>
>> El 17/8/19 18:44, "Fernando Frediani" <fhfrediani at gmail.com
>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>
>> Hi
>> This is not about a "hypothesis" but rather a quiet obvious and logic
>> thing to face. If Africa is the only region that still has space left
>> for its members and the rest of the world is seeking for more IP
>> space at lower cost it makes total sense for someone to think in
>> trying to get IP space form this region and send them out to where is
>> interesting to them if such proposal ever reach consensus. Luckily I
>> don't think it will be the case given the number of oppositions
>> raised and good points put against it.
>> I think maybe you misunderstood some of what has been said and
>> discussed about this topic but I will try to answer some of the
>> points raised.
>>
>> On 17/08/2019 09:52, Andrew Alston wrote:
>>> Hi Fernando, Let me ask you a few questions
>>> -You say AfriNIC still has space – yet because of the soft landing –
>>> the size of allocations for which a member can apply are extremely
>>> smaller – especially once phase 2 kicks in – so – for those that
>>> need more than this – where do you propose they get it in the
>>> absence of this policy and the absence of blocks for sale on the
>>> continent?
>> This is not true. In the current phase an African member who needs IP
>> space can just request, justify and will get the addresses needed.
>> Just when it enters phase 2 it will still be possible to get a
>> smaller block and at that point ISPs should have done their homework
>> to prioritize the addresses they already hold to transition
>> mechanisms rather than the way they were used to use in the past.
>> That is probably the reason this is called soft landing. Nobody can
>> be get by surprise.
>> The most important is that as it stands now African members can get
>> IP space normally, they don't need to go to the market to get extra
>> space and it is a reason that reinforces that this proposal brings
>> zero benefit to the region.
>> And the fact local members can still get the space they request, this
>> proposal should not pass, otherwise it will be a even higher risk of
>> fraud from external organizations at the current Phase of IPv4
>> Exhaustion.
>> (Source:https://www.afrinic.net/cpm-1-0#s5_4)
>>
>>
>>> -How does the interest in companies coming from outside to get space
>>> have anything to do with the companies on the continent needing to
>>> get space from outside? Please explain the correlation
>> I believe it is pretty much explained above, but lets go a bit more
>> into it. Companies from other regions may find cheaper to open a
>> "fake" or "virtual" company in Africa region to get addresses from
>> here and afterwards request a transfer to another RIR where the
>> address will really be used by them. The cost to buy a /24 or a /22
>> in the market makes the economics pretty worth for fraudsters to do
>> all necessary and bureaucratic work to open up and fake company in
>> Africa in the attempt to get these addresses.
>>
>>> -Please explain how having a transfer policy creates a more
>>> fraudulent environment than people who take space off the continent
>>> without updating the whois records and outside of the auspicious of
>>> the RIR – and how you would ever prove that is actually happening or
>>> not.
>>> -You state that those who transfer outside of the system should be
>>> sanctioned – under what laws – please cite legal system and case
>>> law? Last I checked there was no legal right to determine who can
>>> use an integer on the internet
>> I think maybe you misunderstand either what I said or how the RIR
>> system works. When any organization becomes a RIR member and receives
>> a block, it is obliged to use it according to the current rules,
>> policies and behave according to the bylaws and the contract they
>> signed and agreed. There are cases where violations on the policy or
>> how the organization handle the IP space can get these resources
>> revoked from the organization. This works like that on any RIR, not
>> just in AfriNIC.
>> Therefore if the current policies don't allow transfers "under the
>> table" (quiet obvious) and if such wrong attitude and violation of
>> the policy proved the resource holder doesn't have usage for that IP
>> space it can be revoked by the RIR. Simple as that !
>>
>>> -With regards to “If people run out of ipv4 and cant get more they
>>> can use ipv6” – please explain how:
>>> oTo do L2VPN circuits in the absence of v4 and the absence of law
>>> end hardware to do EVPN (and lack of support for EVPN-VPWS)
>>> oTo do traffic engineering when LDPv6 is dead to the point where
>>> it’s unusable
>>> oTo do L3VPN – which currently in every vendor I’ve tested requires
>>> a V4 underlay
>> I am not sure what you are trying to say with that.
>> When an organization cannot get **any more address** (therefore only
>> after phase 2 is finished- a while from now) it means it still has
>> address to use or re-used for different and more efficient proposed
>> as transition mechanisms and until that happens the dependency on
>> IPv4 will be lower than it is now a days. Still on such scenarios
>> there are still alternatives as for example the mentioned in the
>> previous message to create a new policy to assign that last /12
>> revered under section 5.4.7.1 for new entrants and for IPv6
>> transition mechanisms as it exists in other RIRs.
>> At that point maybe will be a better time to discuss a Inter-RIR
>> transfer policy again with much less risk that addresses will be
>> looted from the region.
>>
>>> o
>>> -The story about space being taken out of Africa – Please explain
>>> why the world would come pillaging Africa – when Africa has such a
>>> tiny pool to start with – is it not far easier to go and buy
>>> elsewhere in the world where unused blocks are common and available
>>
>> Explained above about the economics that make it worth for fraudster
>> to come to the region, establish a company to get addresses and then
>> request the transfer out of the region. This is not just a point of
>> view, but pretty much an easy mathematics question.
>>
>> Said that, I am unable to see **any benefit** such proposal bring to
>> African region at the current scenario. Instead it only bring risks
>> (in the current Phase 1 even higher risks) and maybe the only
>> beneficiaries to this policy will be the IP transfer companies and as
>> far as I know it's not the mission of any RIR to create policies to
>> benefit such entities.
>>
>> Fernando
>>
>>> -
>>> So – once we get the answers to all of this – then – we can
>>> potentially test your hypothesis as stated below – but until then –
>>> I can’t see your logic
>>> Andrew
>>> *From:*Fernando Frediani<fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:fhfrediani at gmail.com>
>>> *Date:*Friday, 16 August 2019 at 22:45
>>> *To:*"rpd at afrinic.net" <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net><rpd at afrinic.net>
>>> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [rpd] New Policy Proposal Received - "IPv4 Inter-RIR
>>> Legacy Resource Transfers (Comprehensive Scope)
>>> AFPUB-2019-v4-002-DRAFT01"
>>> Hello
>>>
>>> I want to position myself against this proposal for the many reasons
>>> below.
>>>
>>> First I believe this does not bring any benefits to Africa region
>>> allowing IP space to go out of the region and the same way Africa is not
>>> in need yet to receive IP space from other regions as AfriNIC still has
>>> availability for assignment to its members.
>>>
>>> Allowing inter-RIR transfers opens a wide door for fraud by
>>> organizations from other continents establishing a "virtual" or "fake"
>>> offices in Africa, request some IP space and send them out of the region
>>> afterwards.
>>> As AfriNIC is the only RIR who still has IP space available for its
>>> members they should be protected and made sure they are assigned only
>>> for real usage in the continent.
>>> It is pretty reasonable to think that the major interest will be in
>>> companies outside Africa to come to the region, get IP space and send it
>>> out than the contrary as AfriNIC members can get IP space directly from
>>> the RIR. Why would members need it coming from other regions then ?
>>> Also the 12 months period to request receive more IP space from AfriNIC
>>> is quiet short in my view and make it worth in order to increase fraud
>>> for those who wish to send these addresses out of the region.
>>>
>>> Even if it's expected AfriNIC's IP space to run out anytime soon I still
>>> don't believe it is a reason to allow inter-RIR transfers. In LACNIC
>>> region for example it exhausted IPv4 space for existing members in 2017
>>> and only very recently after 2 years the inter-RIR transfer has reached
>>> consensus there, so I think this type of proposal should be re-evaluated
>>> later on in the future when the scenario changes and when there are real
>>> benefits for Africa region.
>>>
>>> The fact that transfers happen "under the table" I don't consider this
>>> as a strong argument in favor of this change. Transfers under the table
>>> are wrong and against the current policies therefore those who may be
>>> doing it are the wrong ones, not the RIR for not allowing such
>>> transfers. Any organization who received IP space from AfriNIC must bind
>>> to the current policies and that includes not to do transfers that are
>>> not allowed. If they insist on that, sanctions must be applied against
>>> them, therefore there are mechanisms to properly fix this issue, if it
>>> exists.
>>>
>>> The deployment of IPv6 is not impacted for AfricNIC members for the
>>> current scenario as IPv4 is still available to be requested by
>>> organizations for usage by transition mechanisms for example. Even when
>>> that is not possible anymore there are still alternatives as for
>>> example: 1) re-use of already hold IP space, 2) establishment of a
>>> dedicated pool for specific usage with IPv6 transition mechanisms or 3)
>>> prioritization of new entrants, the last two for example based on the
>>> /12 reserved for future use as stated by section5.4.7.1
>>> <http://5.4.7.1/>of the
>>> AfriNIC's Exhaustion Policy
>>>
>>> I also second a comment made by another person in this discussion here:
>>> "Allowing Inter-RIR transfers open room for resources meant to be used
>>> in our region being traded fast due to economic reasons beyond the real
>>> purpose they were meant for which is to help build the African
>>> Internet".
>>>
>>> Therefore I don't think is good or necessary for Africa region to allow
>>> inter-RIR transfers and put the RIR under the risk of its address space
>>> to go out of the region unnecessarily and in an unneeded scenario.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Fernando
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RPD mailing list
>>> RPD at afrinic.net <mailto:RPD at afrinic.net>
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd
>>>
>>>
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--
Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
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