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[rpd] timing for impact analysis
Komi Elitcha
kmw.elitcha at gmail.com
Tue Jul 23 13:53:07 UTC 2019
Hi Jordi,
> On Jul 19, 2019, at 9:14 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Komi,
>
> I’ve explained this many times and it was very clear in the Dakar video.
Yes, Dakar video was very explicit and unequivocal
>
> I was supporting the policy at that time, because I thought you copied the RIPE PDP.
You supported the proposal without reading it through? What was the basis of the support?
Ongoing, which value shall we give to your opinions on this proposal as well as on others?
This region is not suposed to copy any other RIR, but design PDP and policies which suit its needs and context. That is how the current PDP was adopted and PDP-BIS is following same path.
>
> I said the RIPE PDP is the best one in my opinion.
You are still flapping.
I quote you from Dakar:
“ ....I think it’s quite good and it’s very, very close to what we have, and I think it’s one of the best PDPs that we have in the community......"
The "we" became "RIPE" and now RIPE PDP became " the best" from "one of the best"
RIPE PDP may be the "best", but it is not used everywhere and by submitting your numerous proposals in other regions, you have accepted the respective regional PDP.
>
> However, when you discover that this versino of the RIPE PDP is not allowing to decide only in the list, the magic is lost, so I don’t support a “bad copy” because it doesn’t match anymore the intended purpose of decision process only in the list.
You see "copy", "bad copy" "magic" and kept talking about "decision process only on the list", because you simply miss the point that "decision only on the list" was not an issue here and so not in the problem statement.
You were not active in policy discussions in this region in 2009/2010 when the current PDP was discussed, same during the following years when it was really experienced. You reappeared in policy discussions last year. You probably missed some of the facts and history which led to this proposal.
Please view the proposal being discussed based on its problem statement.
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
- Komi
>
>
>
>
> El 18/7/19 23:14, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com <mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>> escribió:
>
> Hi Jordi,
>
> Le 16 juil. 2019 à 17:12, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>
>> Hi Komi,
>>
>> This has been explained already several times, please collect the discussion from the list. Asking the community to tell the same things again, I don’t hink is useful for anyone.
>
> Indeed, archives and minutes are very useful; some records during Dakar meeting reveal that you think pdp-bis is “quite perfect” and that you support it.
>
> Another archive element[1] shows your misunderstanding and confusion about consensus and the approach to consensus proposed by PDP-bis.
>
> As recalled in RFC7282, consensus is a path and not a destination. You keep missing the point.
>
> Version 2 of the proposal being discussed at that time stated the followings:
>
> 3.4 Consensus
> Most of the decisions in the working group operations and discussions on policy proposals are made through rough consensus, unless specified otherwise. The PDWG consensus process is a multi-stakeholder approach to decision-making. The process is used to develop the best possible resource management policies for the AFRINIC service region.
>
> **The consensus process begins when somebody proposes a new policy while the discussion phase begins on the mailing list and continues during the Public policy meetings.**
>
> 3.4.3 Reaching consensus
> In the meeting, the Chair may ask for a show-of-hands, or other techniques, to gauge support for a policy proposal. The use of show-of-hands or other techniques is not a vote.
>
> ** It is a way of broadly measuring opinion and the Chair’s final decision takes many additional factors into account, including earlier discussions on the mailing list.**
>
> * *The aim of the PDWG is to carefully consider all opinions before making a decision.**
>
> At the end of the discussion, the Chair will decide if the working group has reached consensus. Consensus is achieved when everyone consents to the decision of the group. The decision may not be everyone’s first preference, but is acceptable to all participants.
>
>
>
>>
>> In short, and not entering again in the details:
>> Having differente phases (adoption, discussion, review, PPM), only increase the overhead and complexity of the process and to the chairs. This is not helpful to increase the participation.
>
> You are talking about "complexity" while others are working towards “efficiency”.
>
> What currently happen is that proposal really got discussed only at meeting. People travel long distance at huge costs to come and discuss proposal from scratch and disagree with problem statement in the 15 to 30 mn allocated to each proposal.
> The multi stages approach of PDP-bis is intended to avoid this as a proposal will mature enough through the different phases, while all major issues would be addressed and resolved before proposals are presented at the meeting. The 15 to 30 minutes would be used just for clarification on minor pending issues on the proposed solutions to address the problems.
>
>
>>
>> In RIPE we have those phases, because the decision is taken *only in the list*, so there is a need for a stronger timing, which in the case of AFRINIC, if we keep the meeting as mandatory to decide on the consensus, the only “timing” to imposse is that the proposals need to be presented 4 weeks or 1 week before the meeting (depending on a new proposal or a new version of an existing one).
>
> Status quo. Current timing in section 3.4.1 and 3.4.2. which does not even work with the idea of impact analysis in 4 and 2 weeks.
>
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jordi
>>
>> @jordipalet
>>
>
> - Komi
>
> [1] https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2018/008292.html <https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2018/008292.html>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> El 16/7/19 18:13, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com <mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>
>> Hi Jordi,
>>
>> You keep repeating yourself and refuse to listen to the counter arguments...
>>
>> From lessons learnt with serveral years experience with the current PDP, it is proposed to improve the PDP as follow
>>
>> The current PDP:
>>
>> -discussion phase
>> -Impact Analysis (May)
>> -PPM
>> -Concluding phase
>>
>> PDP-bis:
>>
>> -Adoption phase
>> -Discussion phase
>> -Impact analysis (shall)
>> - Review phase
>> -PPM
>> -Concluding phase
>>
>> Can you explain for once why the proposed model won't work? What’s wrong with gauging that a proposal which passes the previous phase has enough support to move to Concluding phase at the PPM?
>>
>> Can we move on?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 10:55 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Komi,
>>>
>>> I think you misunderstood. I’m not saying to change to just the list (at least not now).
>>>
>>> What I’m saying is precisely that the PDP-Bis has been copied from the RIPE PDP, which is meant for only-list. That’s the main reason it doesn’t make sense.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Jordi
>>>
>>> @jordipalet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> El 15/7/19 0:21, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com <mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>>
>>> Hi Jordi,
>>>
>>> Can we stick to review of the current AFRINIC PDP, focus on solutions to address the issues and not mix with our experience with other RIRs PDP?
>>>
>>> Experience with Afrinic PDP and the regional context make PPM mandatory, as part of the consensus decision-making process. Not many in the region, have time and energy to follow closely discussions on proposals which happen in only one single phase, just in 4 weeks.
>>>
>>> If we exercise the multi phase approach of PDP-BIS ( adoption , discussion, review phases) before PPM with the clear definition of roles and responsibilities of chairs, we may conclude later on that consensus can just be obtained via only email as the process would have shown that good discussions and work has been done over these phases.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Komi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jul 14, 2019, at 9:22 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es <mailto:jordi.palet at consulintel.es>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Komi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> El 14/7/19 2:07, "Komi Elitcha" <kmw.elitcha at gmail.com <mailto:kmw.elitcha at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Jordi,
>>>>
>>>> Le 10 juil. 2019 à 14:06, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Arnaud,
>>>>>
>>>>> I don’t agree. Sometimes even a single coma changed, can change the interpretation of the text. Probably not too much, but sufficient for the staff to make a new review of the existing impact analysis to verify what has changed.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe submit changes to staff for applying them to new version?
>>>>
>>>> We shall make sure proposal mature from discussions before requesting impact analysis.. It makes no sense to involve staff in every update. We have seen proposal going back and forward.
>>>>
>>>> On the contrary. The costliest impact analysis, in a typical proposal, is the first one. It takes longer. New versions of policy proposals, means, typically, small impact analysis changes. If the authors are consequent with the impact analysis, addressing the issues, typically it gets reduced.
>>>>
>>>> With current PDP, where every proposal under discussion for
>>>> 4 weeks, is placed on the agenda for next PPM, the best thing to do is to only request staff analysis on version of proposal to be presented and discussed at PPM. This means, co-chairs must organize the discussions around proposals and work with authors to deliver updated version to be presented at PPM on time to allow impact analysis.
>>>>
>>>> Is up to the authors to progress their work. I agree that ideally, they should do it, for new versions many weeks up-front the meeting, so we have a final impact analysis on time, but it depends on the community participating in the list. I can address the issues of the impact analysis of proposal “n” v1 and have v2, but I often want to address in the same version the community inputs, sometimes I wait for those and never come, so you do it just to match the deadline for new versions which is 1 weeks before the meeting.
>>>>
>>>> If impact analysis is required according to co-chairs and can't be done before PPM, then discussion at the meeting should not seek consensus.
>>>>
>>>> I don’t agree with that. We have seen (in every RIR), proposals reaching consensus even without impact analysis. I know is good and it is ideal (because it allows the authors to refine every bit of the proposal), but is not a must to reach consensus.
>>>>
>>>> After all, we are all humans, even if we have a “perfect” impact analysis, sometimes we miss something and the policy needs a new cycle to improve. This is part of the PDP process. The policy manual is always evolving. Circumstances change, technology change, world change. It needs to be adapted to all that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that *most of the times* this will mean just a very few minutes work, but it all depends on the changes from one proposal version to another. I think is fair to ask the staff for it (as this is already their existing operational practice), but at the same time, let to them to decide if it needs a lot of changes or just minor one, because it will depend on each case.
>>>>
>>>> Are we still talking about staff’s impact staff comment on proposal?
>>>>
>>>> I’ve talked always about impact analysis. I see staff comments as any other community inputs. What I don’t expect is the staff to raise things that belong to the impact analysis during the meeting, or even worst after it. They should do their work up front, unless it was a new “big and complex” proposal submitted just 4 weeks before the meeting and it was impossible to have a final impact analysis by the meeting. I doubt this is something that may happen, but I’m happy to keep the door open and in that case a “draft impact analysis” maximum 10 days before the meeting allows the authors to submit, if possible and needed, a new version, to correct any “big” problems in time for the 1 week before the meeting dead-line.
>>>>
>>>> 1st staff impact analysis on proposal should clearly state what the concerns are and the working group must work in making sure these concerns are addressed and that throughout all changes, comply with the impact analysis.
>>>> Only major revision shall require new impact analysis.
>>>>
>>>> In other RIRs, this is done in every version as well. RIPE is a different case, because the RIPE process is meant to work *only* in the mailing list. We can’t compare it, because as we “believe” that there is already some possibility of consensus in the list, then we do a single impact analysis. If we try to do it in Afrinic, where the consensus requires a meeting, it will mean that we need to wait for the meeting for having an impact analysis, and maybe we then discover something that is too late to modify so we need to wait for one more meeting, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> Staff can voice alarms anytime if see working group deviance from the impact analysis.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Clearly this helps the people reading any proposal, because they want to make sure that they are reading the impact analysis for that one. Otherwise you ask each PDP participant to double check all the previous versions compare them, and make sure that the considerations on the impact analysis match.
>>>>>
>>>>> As said the PDP explicit that the “chairs may request” but not that it can’t be done if the chairs don’t request it.
>>>>
>>>> The PDP by explicitly stating what can be done, implicitly prohibit what can't be done. Otherwise no need for a PDP.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. PDP is like law. Law only says what is mandatory and what is forbidden. Anything in the middle is allowed. If law say you may open a bank account and law doesn’t prohibit you to open many bank accounts, then you are allowed to open none, one or as many as you want. In our case PDP say may be requested, but doesn’t prohibit the staff to include in the internal process to do one for each version.
>>>>
>>>> When PDP does not have provision for something, BCPs can apply or working group consensus may decide on how to proceed.
>>>> Otherwise , PDP should be revised to cater with what need to change
>>>> Time to discuss PDP-BIS .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>
>>>>> @jordipalet
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Komi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> El 10/7/19 11:43, "Arnaud AMELINA" <amelnaud at gmail.com <mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Jordi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sometimes you try to complicate simple and easy things and rather complain that everything else is complicated. Staff analysis is not needed for every revision of proposal being discussed. The current PDP addresses this by stating the chairs may request. Responsible policy process follows existing PDP diligently
>>>>>
>>>>> The series of automatic staff analysis we have seen even when a simple clarification is made to proposals have not helped the process.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let us stick to what the current PDP says and rely on chairs to make decision on when to request staff analysis and manage the timing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Arnaud.
>>>>>
>>>>> Le mar. 9 juil. 2019 à 10:07, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> a écrit :
>>>>>> Hi Arnaud,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you exatly show us what existing text in the PDP disallows an internal procedure for the staff to make an impact analysis?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Additional explanation from the PDP:
>>>>>> 3.4.1 Draft Policy Proposal
>>>>>> … The Working Group Chair(s) may request AFRINIC to provide an analysis (technical, financial, legal or other), of the impact of the draft policy proposal. …
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you enlight us about why if the staff decides to have this impact analysis *even* if the chairs don’t ask for it, in an automatic fashion for every policy proposal/version, it can’t be done?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why this is bad for the community (or even the chairs)? Why is a so terrible thing that we should disable the staff the ability to improve their processes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How this is “revoking *any* chairs prerogative”? Can the chairs confirm if they have any trouble which this, or it is a clear improvement on the internal (already existing) staff process?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are we, as a community, trying to improve things in the most agile way, or trying to work against ourselves?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Jordi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @jordipalet
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> El 9/7/19 11:53, "Arnaud AMELINA" <amelnaud at gmail.com <mailto:amelnaud at gmail.com>> escribió:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 6, 2019, 15:52 Ernest Byaruhanga <ernest at afrinic.net <mailto:ernest at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5 Jul 2019, at 23:54, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Hi all,
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Since we got the idea from Sylvain to fix the impact analysis timing (he almost convinced me that we need a policy proposal for that).
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > So, before sending a formal policy proposal, I've exchanged emails with the staff about that, and we discussed that being an operational issue, it may be not necessary to have a policy proposal, but instead an operational process update.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Note that I'm sending this to the list, as agreed with the staff, in order to ensure that we make it transparent for the community, as this is clearly a benefit for all:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > My proposal to the staff:
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Could you amend your actual procedure for the impact analysis in such way that state something in the line of "the staff will provide the impact analysis for new policy proposals in 4 weeks. For new versions of existing policy proposals, which already have an impact analysis, we will aim for providing it in a maximum of 2 weeks. In some cases, it may take longer, however, we will aim to have the full impact analysis or at least some draft of it, 10 days before each policy meeting."
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > I think Ernest want to suggest a small tweak on that text, but I think it should be ok and we avoid a policy proposal and a long discussion and make a better use of the time for all the participants for more complex problems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes - The suggestion above is reasonable. Let us commit to providing a staff analysis in 4 weeks for a new proposal or a large change, and 2 weeks for a small change to an existing proposal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are we changing the PDP through staff ? Are we imposing staff analysis to each revision of proposal being discussed ? Are we revoking chairs prerogative to request staff analysis when it is needed? While new proposal seems obvious, who decides what is large change or small change? Is this not the cochairs call?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Arnaud
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **********************************************
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>>>>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> **********************************************
>>>>> IPv4 is over
>>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
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>>>>>
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>>>> **********************************************
>>>> IPv4 is over
>>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>>
>>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> **********************************************
>>> IPv4 is over
>>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>>> The IPv6 Company
>>>
>>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
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>>
>>
>> **********************************************
>> IPv4 is over
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
>> The IPv6 Company
>>
>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
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> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.theipv6company.com <http://www.theipv6company.com/>
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
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