[rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals

Tue Jun 18 20:52:24 UTC 2019

Below, in-line.

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 18/6/19 23:37, "DANIEL NANGHAKA" <dndannang at gmail.com> escribió:

Hi Jordi,
You mention ... being sold to other regions through Black Market...

The solution is simple, conducting an IP audit and review the current blocks.

Do you know how much time a review of *all* the resources for *all* the AFRINIC members will take? Have you evaluated the cost for the AFRINIC and every individual member?

It will be nice if the staff can provide an idea about that cost. Maybe I’m wrong and is just peanuts and then I will be happy to support it.

So, a “generic” or “random” review, doesn't make sense to me. If you have information of any member that is doing that, please, speak openly. Be sure that I’m trying to get that information, but I’ve not been able to obtain it, and I will be immediately telling the staff if I have even a simple suspicious.

Those which have been sold through Black Market can be recalled because they break the rules of assignment of the blocks.

And I agree, again, as indicated in my last email about this, what we need is a Resource Recovery policy, as we have in other regions. I even provided specific text for that and I’m happy to contribute to it. Do you want to co-author it?

Secondly, selling IPv4 in black market means that there is a demand of IPv4 in the respective markets. Why then would a policy that supports transfer be passed? This implies that when passed, the resources that were sold in the black market become valid.

Because, it may be employees selling the addresses, making easy money. Because they are selling with a much lower price, so it makes sense to buy from the black market, even if it is not reflected in the whois. We will know when we can have concrete examples. I recall there has been some cases in RIPE as well, until we implemented the policy.

Let's be critical here, I will be happy for a review of which resources are in the black market such that they are returned to the pool.

And again, we agree here. Let’s work on that policy proposal (Resource Recovery). Do you want to seat on the table tomorrow for drafting it?

On Jun 18, 2019 11:09 PM, <rpd-request at afrinic.net> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals
      (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 23:08:11 +0300
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
To: "rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy" <rpd at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals
Message-ID: <E8CD414B-C5AF-4F32-A815-6BE5AFC9132A at consulintel.es>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I don?t think you got my point.

What I?m saying it that for business reasons, for me, it will be better to let the existing IPv4 space in Africa to finish instead of trying to help with a policy proposal that allow this region to keep growing the IPv4 deployment. 

Instead of that I feel that I must use my time for facilitating that you can get more IPv4 addresses, and even more, avoiding that IPv4 addresses from Africa are being sold in other regions via a black market.

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 18/6/19 23:00, "John Ngwoke" <john.ngwoke at unn.edu.ng> escribi?:

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 20:18, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net> wrote:

Hi Daniel,

This policy is to support the growth of Africa.

If you suggest that I?m against the growth of Africa, you probably don?t know that I pay from my own pocket and lots of personal time, to come to the meetings, do trainings, do presentations, do policy proposals, and support anyone that contact me as much as I can. And I do this, the same for Africa that for the other regions.

Believe me that I don?t have any other interest. Many people from the community know me personally for about 2 decades, and I don?t think anyone has a doubt on that.

Implementing this kind of policy proposal takes (according to what I?ve been said) around 6-9 months. This is around the time that AFRINIC will enter in the next exhaustion phase.

My business is IPv6 training and consultancy. My *best interest* is to let the IPv4 addresses run out in Africa, not allowing transfers, so more people need *urgently* to get IPv6 deployed. This kind of policy is probably the worst I can do to increase my business. However I feel this is the right think I must do.

If your main interest is to let the IPv4 run out in African with out it been used up for development of Africa, then you have to examine your interest for the growth of Africa as you stated earlier in your mail. Have you investigated the way other continent used their IPv4. 

I strongly agree that we need IPv6, but will that mean misusing our IP resources or throwing them out so we can start using IPv6.

Lets keep the IPv4 that is for African development for Africa and keep exploring the use of IPv6. 

I do not support this policy since it will not add any value to the development of internet in Africa.

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 18/6/19 21:49, "DANIEL NANGHAKA" <dndannang at gmail.com> escribi?:

Hello Jordi,
In case the other regions allow bidirectional transfer, Africa region is not yet ready for the transfers. 

I suggest you should be supporting the growth of the internet in Africa and not aim for transfer of resources that are required for the digital transformation and growth of Africa.

In case ARIN is giving more resource, what is the review behind this resources. I don't think ARIN would gladly transfer resources to region which has not depleted its resources. Let Africa show that's its resources are depleted then push for the transfer but we resources which are required by other regions. Let's  use this resources in the region.

Daniel K. Nanghaka

On Jun 18, 2019 9:12 PM, <rpd-request at afrinic.net> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs
      this policy now! (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 21:10:45 +0300
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
To: "rpd >> AfriNIC Resource Policy" <rpd at afrinic.net>
Subject: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC
        needs this policy now!
Message-ID: <83B33FFF-B1CB-4D1E-9CBF-1E9670BF10CA at consulintel.es>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi Paschal,

All the existing policies (APNIC, ARIN, LACNIC and RIPE) allow bi-direccional transfers without looking at any balance or any restrictions.

There is no restriction in any of those policies to say something like ?we only allow n% of outgoing transfers vs incoming ones?.

As said a number of times, the region that is ?giving? more addressess is ARIN. Please see my presentation tomorrow on this (still working on it right now).

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

El 18/6/19 20:59, "Paschal Ochang" <pascosoft at gmail.com> escribi?:

Based on your analogy Howard it therefore means that this policy will benefit the region. The major fear is not just the balance of resources flow but  more resources going out and less coming in and this proposal clearly shows that this region will benefit from the policy because more resources will flow in the region. Is there any region that will allow only outflow of resources without inflow?  I don't think so.
On Tuesday, June 18, 2019, Lee Howard <lee.howard at retevia.net> wrote:

This is interesting.

My logic goes like this:

1. Afrinic has a finite number of IPv4 addresses to allocate/assign.

2. Afrinic will run out of those addresses next year.

3. Once Afrinic runs out, any network needing more IPv4 addresses not be able to get them from Afrinic.

4. Networks needing more addresses will have choices:

  4a. Stop growing.

  4b. Use (carrier-grade) NAT. Even NAT requires some IPv4 addresses.

  4c. Try to find addresses inside Africa that are for sale.

Evaluating those options:

4a is bad for the region.

4b is complicated. It means buying more hardware, updating some systems. Some things don't work well with NAT. If you can deploy IPv6 and use NAT64, 464xlat, MAP-T or MAP-E, you reduce that cost, but it's still more than you spend now.

4c could get very expensive. Demand for IPv4 addresses has been around 25,000 /24s per year (with some much higher peaks) since Afrinic was founded.[1] The Afrinic region has about seven /8s in total.[2] If demand  continues, then more than 6M of those 112M addresses would have to be traded every year, somewhere between 1/2% - 1%.

The question then is whether you think there are more underutilized IPv4 addresses in the U.S. or in Africa. Assuming a perfect market:

If Africa is more efficient, and Afrinic's transfer policy is only within the region, then the few unused IPv4 addresses will sell for a higher price than addresses elsewhere.[3] 

If Africa is less efficient and Afrinic's transfer policy is only within the region, then unused addresses will be cheaper than elsewhere.

If Africa is more efficient and Afrinic has an inter-regional transfer policy, addresses will be valued more highly in Africa and addresses will come in.

If Africa is less efficient that the rest of the world and Afrinic has an inter-regional transfer policy, buyers in other countries will buy addresses from Africa.

My guess is that addresses in Africa are pretty efficiently utilized, and therefore people in Africa will have a higher need for addresses than people elsewhere, and therefore a) prices will rise, and b) addresses will tend to flow in to Africa rather than out.

Lee

[1] https://afrinic.net/stats/ipv4

[2] https://www.nro.net/wp-content/uploads/NRO-Statistics-2019-Q1.pdf

[3] https://www.retevia.net/address-pricing-2019-and-beyond/ easily $30 per address next year, maybe much higher

On 6/18/19 8:18 AM, Pascal ANDRIANISA wrote:
Thank you Jordi
if in the opposite case the remaining resources at AFRINIC will be transferred to other RIRs. It is true that I am not against but I do not agree that the current resources insufficient according to the information I received since AFRINIC-29 will be transferred to other RIR.
If you can guarantee this balance of resources transfer I think it will be logical for AFRINIC. Unlike so if AFRINIC has a lot of resources it will be good for the community.

Regards, 

Pascal Heriliva ANDRIANISA 
Webmaster i RENALA 
R esearch and E ducation N etwork for A cademic and L earning A ctivities - [ http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ | http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ ] 
Porte 201 - Minist?re de l'Enseignement Sup?rieur et de la Recherche Scientifique - Fiadanana 
GSM :+261 (0) 32 46 680 29 | +261 (0) 34 30 680 29

----- Mail original -----
De: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
?: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
Envoy?: Mardi 18 Juin 2019 14:55:02
Objet: Re: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!

Hi Pascal,

Precisely what you said is the argument in favor of this policy proposal, not against.

AFRINIC don't have enough resources. The only way to receive resources is a policy that allows that other regions that are "giving up" resources, can get them.

This is the case for LACNIC (the same policy proposal reached consensus in the last meeting and yesterday the consensus decision was handed out to the board for the final ratification), and for AFRINIC.

AFRINIC must have an equivalent policy proposal to the ones that exist in the other regions, otherwise, you will not get sufficient resources for the continued implementation of IPv4 in the region and this will also be a barrier for the IPv6 deployment.

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet

?

?El 18/6/19 10:48, "Pascal ANDRIANISA" <pascal at irenala.edu.mg> escribi?:

??? Hi Jordi, 
????I read the policy proposal for IPV4 Inter-RIR Transfert.?? 
????The article => https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-002-d1#proposal
????? I think this is not the benefit of AFRINIC as resources are currently insufficient for AFRINIC.
??? Otherwise it is necessary to balance the transfers between RIR because at least the number of resources is limited to sending to other RIRs.
??? 
????I do not support this policy for this reason, The AFRINIC's resources are not enough for AFRICA, why transfer them elsewhere .... 
????
????Pascal Heriliva ANDRIANISA 
????Webmaster i RENALA 
????R esearch and E ducation N etwork for A cademic and L earning A ctivities - [ http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ | http://www.irenala.edu.mg/ ] 
????Porte 201 - Minist?re de l'Enseignement Sup?rieur et de la Recherche Scientifique - Fiadanana 
????GSM :+261 (0) 32 46 680 29 | +261 (0) 34 30 680 29
??? 
????----- Mail original -----
??? De: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
??? ?: "rpd" <rpd at afrinic.net>
??? Envoy?: Samedi 15 Juin 2019 13:23:23
??? Objet: [rpd] inputs on IPv4 Inter-RIR policy proposals - AFRINIC needs this policy now!
??? 
????Hi all,
??? 
????I wonder if anyone has inputs on the policy proposals for IPv4 Inter-RIR transfers.
??? 
????https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-001-d1
??? 
????and
??? 
????https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-002-d1
??? 
????I will be presenting both of them together on Wednesday 19th. If you're not in Kampala, make sure to participate remotely (https://www.internetsummit.africa/en/participate-remotely), so we can resolve any doubts on the spot.
??? 
????This is a key issue for AFRINIC, which now is the *only* RIR not allowing those transfers.
??? 
????AFRINIC is soon (probably around end of this year) entering in exhaustion phase 2, so it will become more and more difficult to obtain IPv4. If transfers from other regions aren't allowed, this will be an added difficulty for the Internet growth in the region, and increase the difficulties for the continued IPv6 deployment.
??? 
????The region needs this policy *now*, because the implementation requires several months as there is a need to coordinate with the systems of the other RIRs, in order to ensure a transparent transfers process.
??? 
????So, what is your opinion?
???? 
????Regards,
??? Jordi
??? @jordipalet
???? 
?????
????
????
????
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