[rpd] Policy Development Process Bis v4 issues

Mon Dec 3 15:42:34 UTC 2018

Hi Marcus,

Please note that I’ve said those are my “notes”. I just wanted to send this faster to the list. Those notes were for me to raise them during the discussion in the meeting. Not to “read” them, but for me to remember each point and explain my concerns.

And despite that, I’m sorry, but I don’t see any lack of decency or respect using “erroneous”, “make sense”, or any other wording. It may be a non-native language issue, but really, I doubt. There was a lot of lack of respect to the community in general during the meeting.

Anyway, I’m happy if the chairs want to apply the code of conduct for everybody in the same way, if they really believe something is wrong in my message.

By the way, you are forgetting inputs during 2018 in your ack. Actually, it is a lack of respect, in my opinion, authors of policy proposals not answering in the list when they have contributions, questions, etc.

The PDP, to be able to work, needs a lot of proactivity from all the community members, and that include authors.

And yes, as said in the meeting, I was convinced in Dakar about that, and please see that there is “first round”, but after saw no proactivity, I went to carefully read again it, and changed my mind. I think this is perfectly valid.

Now, going to the real work. Most of the points that I’m raising are simple to solve, but I think we have a major issue, as said in the previous email.

This PDP proposal is complex, not helping to improve the participation. As said, I changed my mind, I don’t think the different phases make any sense at all.

Specially the adoption phase, distinction among minor and major objections, being too strict about what the chairs can do, appeal requiring several people, etc.

If I need to contribute with text, I’m happy to do so, but then I will prefer to start from my own text, because my main concern is that this is too complex unnecessarily.

I think we need to discuss openly WHY we need a more complex PDP instead of a simpler one?

WHY not starting from the actual PDP and solving the problems instead of drastically changing it?

The main problems that we are trying to solve, in my opinion is:
lack of a good and comprehensive definition of consensus
lack of a good definition of what is for (and not for) the last call
lack of participation
lack of mailing list as part of the consensus, clearly defined
simplify the PDP, make it shorter in terms of timing

I will suggest we discuss on those topics and then we can decide if the phases make sense at all.

Possibly, in a few years from one, once the community is more engaged, we could consider a new update, in order to allow the consensus to be reached just with the mailing list, not needed the presentation in the policy meeting, but that’s another topic, even if needs to be taken in consideration when writing the text now, so to make that change easier and feasible.

Regards,

Jordi

De: "Marcus K. G. Adomey" <madomey at hotmail.com>
Fecha: lunes, 3 de diciembre de 2018, 15:51
Para: rpd List <rpd at afrinic.net>, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet at consulintel.es>
Asunto: Re: Policy Development Process Bis v4 issues

Hi Jordi,

Thank you for the list of issues you felt needed to be pointed out with the PDP-Bis v4 draft policy. Nevertheless, I have few concerns that need to be raised.

First and foremost, I do not sense a collaborative tone specially with the first 2 points. The words “erroneous” and “doesn’t make sense” does not carry decency and respect for the AFRINIC community.  It is my opinion that a positive contribution to the  development of this community should carry a much better approach, show some courtsey in the forum. And we all hope you don’t want to take us back to the area of tension and unrest we went through few months ago and gladly left  behind.

This work is not about reinventing the wheel and the authors acknowledged  in section 4.0 the main sources of ideas...

===

4.0 Acknowledgements

This proposal is mainly based on the intensive discussions we had on the current PDP during 2016 and 2017 on RPD mailing list. It addresses the issues by referring to best practices from IETF and the PDP of other RIRs.

===

Secondly, allow me to point you back to your own word in Dakar regarding version 3 and I quote:

<<It's difficult to make it perfect the first round, so that is my reason to support it. I think it's quite good and it's very, very close to what we have, and I think it's one of the best PDPs that we have in the community.>>

You can then understand how surprised I must be to see such a drastic radical change of opinion. More so as version 4.0 just addressed the community consensus-based  issues. 

Now that  you have clearly expressed how you feel about this policy and pointed out what you think are its  weaknesses, would you be so kind and show a constructive approach by  offering useful amendment texts while keeping in mind that it is difficult to make it perfect on the 1st round.

I am afraid to tell you that you are about to create a difficult working condition for the fine tuning of the PDP if you are not capable  of understanding  these basic principles. In all case let not obstruct unnecessary the long effort of   this community to modernise  its PDP.

Thanks

Marcus

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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <rpd at afrinic.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2018 9:03:33 PM
To: rpd List
Subject: [rpd] Policy Development Process Bis v4 issues 

Hi all,

As promised in the meeting, this is the list of issues that I've identified when I was reading the last version, last night.

It may require some more explanation point by point (hopefully we can start a discussion on those), as those are just my own notes when I was reading it, but definitively something to start to work.

What it more worries me is the complexity of the suggested process, this will decrease participation.

1) Definition of Consensus is incomplete and erroneous
2) The distinction among minor and major objections doesn’t make sense
3) Consensus determined only in the meeting (there is no timing for the discussion in the list)
4) Contradictory, consensus is not unanimity
5) Leave the chairs to decide. Providing so much details to them in the PDP means they can’t “move” on their own. Community elected them, community need to trust them. If they are erred, there is an appeal process.
6) Phases stated are complex and unnecessary. Looks like trying to copy the RIPE PDP but with broken things. Will difficult the community participation.
7) The PDP can’t avoid having competing proposals, it is good for the process and the community to investigate several choices.
8) The WG should not decide against a policy proposal if is in scope of the PDP (so adoption phase doesn’t apply)
9) End of discussion phase brings subjective documentation of the process, biasing the community.
10) Impact analysis should include “more” and not bias the community
11) What happens if the timing with the review phase and the next meeting doesn’t match?
12) In the Concluding phase, it is not clear why a proposal should go back to either the discussion or the review phase
13) Implementation waiver from who? The implementation timing is up to the staff and should be informed in the impact analysis
14) In the RIPE PDP we made last September a change, as there was a mistake in the process, following a policy proposal that I’ve authored, regarding the non-consensus after the review phase. I think you missed that point …
15) There is no point in asking for 3 individuals for an appeal. If a single community member wants to appeal a PDP decision and can't, I'm convinced he has the right to go to courts, because it is not inclusive

Regards,
Jordi

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