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[rpd] Questions for Alain...
Mark Elkins
mje at posix.co.za
Wed Jun 6 06:51:05 UTC 2018
I second Saul's request.
On 06/06/2018 08:15, Saul Stein wrote:
>
> I have been waiting for Alain to respond, but sadly he hasn’t.
>
>
>
> He has written and with a few colleagues, tried to bulldoze through a
> proposal and suggested another, ignoring all protests and objections
> while lambasting all and anyone who stood in his way . A policy that
> over the past number of years has cause and fractured this community
> immeasurably!
>
>
>
> There is a clear conflict of interest here.
>
>
>
> I therefor call for Alain to withdraw both his soft landing policy
> within 24hours. Should that not happen, I call on the chairs of this
> group, to use powers of common sense to reject this policy as a
> conflict of interest.
>
>
>
> I also call for Alains other proposal to be withdrawn, as it is clear
> that this is designed to obscure conflicts of interest.
>
>
>
> Mike, sadly the motivation here is the issue. In my view there is no
> credibility in anyone that berates and divides an organisation for
> self-interest as we have seen here. The proof is the website and
> LinkedIn, with no denial from Alain who if this wasn’t true has now
> had time to investigate.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:*Mike Burns [mailto:mike at iptrading.com]
> *Sent:* 06 June 2018 02:05 AM
> *To:* Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com>
> *Cc:* AfriNIC RPD MList. <rpd at afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Questions for Alain...
>
>
>
> Hi Owen,
>
>
>
> Simply, no. His motivation doesn't change the credibility of his
> arguments. They stand on their own.
>
> There is no place and no need for this, especially with the subject
> line, how could it not be ad hominem?
>
> Attacking the motivation of a person is almost the definition of
> argumentum ad hominem.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 19:40:12 -0400 *Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com
> <mailto:owen at delong.com>>* wrote ----
>
>
>
> While I agree ad hominem has no place in policy debates, I think
> there is validity in this case to attacking the credibility of his
> arguments based on what is now a visible previously undisclosed
> conflict of interest. If he had merely proposed or advocated for
> the policy, it would be one thing, but his intransigent refusal to
> withdraw the policy despite repeated rejection by the community
> establishes a pattern of facts which invites scrutiny of his
> motivations and the credibility of his arguments in light of
> recent disclosures.
>
>
>
> Owen
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2018, at 08:03 , Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com
> <mailto:mike at iptrading.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Andrew,
>
>
>
> While I sympathize with your position on the soft landing
> proposals, and even accepting all the facts below are true,
> the fact remains that you were attacking the man (ad hominem)
> by impugning his motivations, not his arguments.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Andrew Alston [mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 05, 2018 10:37 AM
>
> *To:* Mike Burns <mike at iptrading.com
> <mailto:mike at iptrading.com>>; 'Owen DeLong' <owen at delong.com
> <mailto:owen at delong.com>>; 'Chevalier du Borg'
> <virtual.borg at gmail.com <mailto:virtual.borg at gmail.com>>
>
> *Cc:* 'AfriNIC RPD MList.' <rpd at afrinic.net
> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>
> *Subject:* RE: [rpd] Questions for Alain...
>
>
>
> Mike,
>
>
>
> Nothing ad-hominem about this –
>
>
>
> Fact – a policy was proposed that the community rejected
>
> Fact – the community asked for the policy to be withdrawn –
> multiple times
>
> Fact – Alain refused to withdraw and then denied that the
> community had demanded such – despite it being on video
>
> Fact – The policy was some how shoved through – and appealed
>
> Fact – the appeal was granted
>
> Fact – Alain then slammed the integrity of the appeal
> committee and accused them of malfeasance – again – that’s on
> video
>
>
>
> All of this – over a 3 period while railing against people who
> wanted IP space and doing everything in his power to ensure
> that people could not GET the space they needed by policy –
> while also holding a block of space for his employer that
> remains unannounced other than 25% of it announced by a
> commercial ASN – while pushing for an audit policy that anyone
> can clearly see was designed to target specific individuals –
> and I can name them.
>
>
>
> To then turn around and open a broker – while attempting to
> use policy to swing things like this with no declaration of
> interest – might be within the rules – but it is in my opinion
> – shockingly bad ethics and at the very least – shows a total
> lack of judgement
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mike Burns [mailto:mike at iptrading.com]
>
> *Sent:* 05 June 2018 17:11
>
> *To:* 'Owen DeLong' <owen at delong.com
> <mailto:owen at delong.com>>; 'Chevalier du Borg'
> <virtual.borg at gmail.com <mailto:virtual.borg at gmail.com>>
>
> *Cc:* 'AfriNIC RPD MList.' <rpd at afrinic.net
> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Questions for Alain...
>
>
>
> “There’s nothing wrong with being a broker” – Owen
>
>
>
> Thanks for that, Owen. 😉
>
> More to the point, there is nothing wrong with a broker
> authoring policy.
>
> I agree that it’s better to be open about being a broker when
> authoring policy.
>
>
>
> However this thread began entirely as an ad hominem.
>
>
>
> +1 to the previous poster who said it’s past time for Africa
> to get in sync with the rest of the world regarding the IPv4
> market.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 05, 2018 9:14 AM
>
> *To:* Chevalier du Borg <virtual.borg at gmail.com
> <mailto:virtual.borg at gmail.com>>
>
> *Cc:* AfriNIC RPD MList. <rpd at afrinic.net
> <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [rpd] Questions for Alain...
>
>
>
> There’s nothing wrong with being a broker. However, the SL-BIS
> proposal is one which brokers stand to profit from.
>
>
>
> Your analogy of the doctor doesn’t apply because the doctor
> isn’t profiting from it when you stop smoking. Indeed, you’re
> improved health might actually cost him money.
>
>
>
> This would be more like having the doctor encourage your
> smoking and then discovering that he also owned a tobacco
> company.
>
>
>
> Not only is it bad medical advice, but turns out the doctor
> stands to profit from it if the community takes his bad advice.
>
>
>
> Owen
>
>
>
>
> On Jun 5, 2018, at 04:19, Chevalier du Borg
> <virtual.borg at gmail.com <mailto:virtual.borg at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear M. Alson
>
>
>
>
>
> Is there a logic arguement in here somewhere?
>
> Ad-hominem is not logic
>
>
>
>
>
> After all, yourself have defended broker on this list
> saying there nothing wrong with it.
>
>
>
>
>
> The doctor advise to STOP smoking is still good advice for
> you, even if doctor hisself is a big smoker.
>
>
>
> Le mar. 5 juin 2018 à 14:31, Andrew Alston
> <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
> <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> a écrit :
>
>
>
> You have actively supported and fought for the new
> soft landing policy – to artificially restrict space
> to entities that need it.
>
>
>
> Now, I’d like to ask – as an author of the
> soft-landing-bis policy which you have STILL not
> withdrawn… aren’t you just a LITTLE bit conflicted in
> trying to create an artificial shortage and make it
> hard for people to get space – while starting and
> founding an IP broker in Africa?
>
>
>
> Maybe now we understand the **true** motivations
> behind the soft landing bis policy….
>
>
>
> http://ext-host.trstech.net/ipregistrar/trust_us.html
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
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> --
>
> Borg le Chevalier
>
> ___________________________________
>
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--
Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
mje at posix.co.za Tel: +27.128070590 Cell: +27.826010496
For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
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