[rpd] IPv4 Soft Landing BIS

[Frank Habicht]

Hi all,

[even if it gets boring, there are interesting responses inline up to
the very end!]

On 7/28/2017 1:00 PM, Noah wrote:
> On 28 Jul 2017 10:17 a.m., "Frank Habicht" <geier at geier.ne.tz
> <mailto:geier at geier.ne.tz>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi all,
> 
>     On 7/28/2017 9:17 AM, Noah wrote:
>     > We supporters of an updated Softlanding policy believe in the impact
>     > that a public IP address can have on our peoples lives.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.

I obviously prefer it if the IPs get delegated to AfriNIC members on
needs basis. Emphasis: GET DELEGATED

>     > Its a fact that an IP address has been responsible for the creation of
>     > jobs and most of you if not all of you in this community in one way or
>     > another are positively affected by the internet.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
>     [only few (AfriNIC staff) have the job of dealing with IPs in the bank]
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
> 
>     > Our governements though the LIR's and PI resource members of  Afrinic
>     > collect taxes from this businesses hence develop our respective
>     countries.
> 
>     only for delegated IPs...
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
> 
>     > The IP address has enabled egoverment and now the administrative state
>     > can serve citizens through egov services thereby increase government
>     > effeciency and more and more of our African governments are putting
>     > information online.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
>     > The IP address is responsible for research and education institutes
>     > today across the continent to communicate and share ideas and our
>     > scholars are able to interact by means of the African Internet.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
>     > The IP address has enabled access to information beyond our reach and
>     > this access to information is enabling our people effect
>     socio-economic
>     > and political change.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
>     > The IP address has enabled ecommerse and has empowered local fintech
>     > innovations like mobile money which has fundamentally had a profound
>     > effect on our peoples lives.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
>     > The Internet that is a social media enabler has enabled young men and
>     > women across this continent to access a local market and trade
>     online on
>     > ecommerce platforms where they dont have to own physical stores/shops
>     > but they can market and sale their products online and deliver the
>     same
>     > to the buyers.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
>     > With a surge in high unemployments rates across sub-sahara Africa,
>     many
>     > unemployed graduates are finding a reason to hope as platforms like
>     > Instagram, facebook and others are enabling them to access
>     followers who
>     > in one or another have turned out to be a customer or client base.
> 
>     ... but not when the IP address sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it
>     gets used through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
> 
>     > Our local musicians today are reaching a far bigger audience that has
>     > enabled them grow their artistic talent beyond Africa and our Afrobeat
>     > music and house music is now listened and enjoyed by folks from all
>     > works of life. They are enabling us change our story.
> 
>     ... but not when the IP address sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it
>     gets used through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.
> 
> 
> 
>     > The IP address bas enables our friends who come to tour our beautiful
>     > continent access to more local information about our various countries
>     > thereby enabling us collect revenue and create jobs and build our
>     > hospitality industry.
> 
>     not when the status in the AfriNIC DB is "available"
> 
> 
> 
> Yet they will be available in the IPv4 transfer market.

No.
My "available" means in AfriNIC pool. Ie not in any other market, nor in
use.


>     > Lets not kid ourselves. As the vendors continue fixing the IPv6
>     software
>     > stacks, IPv4 still works and IPv4 will not be less useful anytime soon
>     > because vendors across the board still make a killing out of IPv4.
> 
>     But some time IPv4 addresses will be less useful than now.
> 
> 
> Yes and their uselessness will depend on the enviroment in which they
> are used.

Agreed. So neither an argument for your preference, nor for mine.
Overall I think that at some point the usefulness of v4 addresses will
from some later date decline [only 4 billion other IPs reachable from
any v4 IP]; just like currently the usefulness of v6 addresses
increases. [Network effect]

>     Do we want that to happen sooner or later?
> When you plant a seed, does the seed turn into tree in a fortnight?

It does not.
That's related to my question? How?
Should i respond to your question with a question? Why?

You can always postpone planting your seeds - reason: it won't be a tree
in a fortnight. It would probably be too controversial to suggest this
about some policy proposals....

>     > Big telecoms have invested in legacy equipmemts and still returning
>     > their investments.
> 
>     Do they want to keep more IPv4 addresses longer with AfriNIC?
>     I think not.
> 
> Obviously note but yet other RIR still keep them and generate revenue
> from then courtesy of the IPv4 transfer market and previous memberships.

I'm not up-to-date regarding what revenue (other) RIRs generate from the
transfer market. If I understand right you want to keep more IPs longer
in the AfriNIC pool. which also means out of the transfer market.
Right?


>     > Big internet companies that depends on global numbers which are mainly
>     > still accessible via the IPv4 internet wont risk loosing this market.
> 
>     Do they want more users connected on IPv4 this year or in 5 years?
> 
> 
> 
> Ask one telecom that roled out IPv6 in Africa to its users only to come
> to the realization that millions of their end user devices dont support
> IPv6 as they had thought even though some Ivy class users had updated
> better versions.

... and other millions of devices support it....
and it's better to plan that seed now, even if in 2 weeks it will not be
a tree, and I know you know that.

BTW: When did you start advertising that telecom that rolled out IPv6 to
its users ;-) ?


>     > Some startups will be seeking addresses to atleast support critical
>     > infrastucture like DNS and Web servers if there is none from Afrinic,
>     > you be forced to pay more expensively from those who have the space.
> 
>     That above is the one part I agree with.
> 
> 
> Its a fact.
> 
> 
>     > Facebook, youtube,uber,twitter,google,instagram,apple,microsoft,airbnb
>     > to name but a few are software companies that have created jobs
>     and are
>     > making millions of dollars and affecting lives because the Ip
>     addresses
>     > made it possible.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.

I prefer delegation on needs basis.
To make it a bit more clear: I'm against the draft policy

>     > The IP address is what makes you and me pay our bills within our
>     domain
>     > of ICT.
> 
>     ... but not when it sits in the bank (AfriNIC) - only if it gets used
>     through delegation .... to RIR members
> 
> 
> 
> They will not sit there forever, they will continue to be delegated as
> per the recommendations in the draft policy.

Hmmmm.... I should probably respond same way as above.


>     > There million dollar IPv4 transfer market is here to stay and late
>     > entreprenuers and startups will pay more expensively for an IP address
>     > post IPv4 exhaustion which could potentially discourage investment in
>     > the IP related investments.
> 
>     and the IPs will be more costly if we artificially keep more IPv4
>     addresses out of reach.
> 
> 
> 
> Costly from Afrinic as the one evaluating and delegating or costly when
> the price of an IP addresses is determine by the scarcity of the IP
> address in the transfer market.?

I was referring to your "expensively".


>     > The last IPv4 address ought to be handled with care hence further
>     > recommendation on how to deal with this depletion scenario.
> 
>     Ok, i can give you one. One IPv4 address, take good care of it.
>     ;-)
> 
> Ack

192.88.99.2/32


>     > We can deplete fast but if any one of you tomorrow wants IP addresses
>     > and cant get them from Afrinic, you will be forced to dance to the
>     IPv4
>     > brokers pricing.
> 
>     Fine. Just don't deny to LIRs what they need today.
> 
> 
> Afrinic will not deny a justified request for allocation from the last
> pool as per the policy proposal.

I prefer current policy. Not the proposal.


>     > You will be forced to look up to IPv4 brokers  for address space
>     and the
>     > IPv4 broker will not trade space the same way Afrinic does.
> 
>     Yes. It's a limited resource. Life is really not fair sometimes.
> 
> Yet we can do something about it to make life fair also sometimes.

Yes, and "which one is more fair" is where we differ.
Partly because we both know what the future will bring, but strangely
these pictures differ.

>     > IPv4 is still relevant than you will ever imagine save for the
>     rhetoric
>     > around how IPv4 is legacy and not needed meanwhile millions of dollars
>     > are exchanging hands in the IPv4 tranfer market.
> 
>     I agree it's needed, so let's give out IPs if they are needed.
> 
> And they will be given.

I don't want to repeat myself. Which was btw not your original idea.

>     I can tell you one organisation that probably won't need any more IP
>     addresses than they currently use themselves: AfriNIC.
>     But they have more in the bank, and have the job to give them to members
>     who use them.
> 
> 
> Obviously but we are saying let that be in need basis.

And I say: according to current policy.

Regards,
Frank