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[rpd] [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
Owen DeLong
owen at delong.com
Fri May 12 10:41:16 UTC 2017
> On May 12, 2017, at 02:33 , Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No no no brother Elkins
>
> I am not agree with you.
>
> so many people condemn such policy other in ripe say it is stinking meaning not good at all.
>
> Only the Icann chairs is saying will support in that ripe video. But he is not aware of challenges like why internet is such reason behind like polical ones which is not technical.
The ICANN chair didn’t say he would support or oppose the policy from what I could see. He said that ICANN staff was available to assist in moving the policy through the global policy development process and/or to assist in drafting the policy or creating an ICANN policy working group to develop similar policy related to CCTLDs.
That’s very different from support.
> Someone from France even say this bad policy will make government happy and smile when ip address stop coming ..meaning no ip no internet ver good for government which like to use paper in the old school ways. It means government is happy with such policy for it will give them power and excuse to even make more internet shuts and blackout internet instead of the government being scare.
For draconian regimes that prefer to block access to the internet by their citizens, such a claim should not be so easily dismissed. There could well be validity to this point of view and it would not surprise me if some governments did embrace the lack of address resources as yet another convenient control mechanism.
> So this message of you saying the bad policy attract many global debate is wrong as the debate is negative not good all as so many people in RIPE meeting asked so many questions whcih the Mrs.Andrew Alston only refuse to answer and keep saying he interested in debate.
It has attracted debate. I won’t argue the quality of the debate it has attracted, but it has called attention to the issue in question and with this type of issue, gaining attention is almost always good regardless of the type of attention obtained. People are now discussing internet shutdowns as a much more serious issue than before. That is a positive sign of progress on the actual issue.
Unfortunately, the actual issue is out of scope for the PDP. The PDP really is the wrong tool for this job. However, I think that is partially a reflection of the concept that if the only tool you have is a hammer, then every fastener looks like a nail.
> Even the zimbawabwe mugabe mentioning very bad publicity for the president who am sure will shut that internet very fast if it causes political problem. even the 1994 mention of people die even if internet is there nothing will happen because it is politics with long history.
The democratization of communications and communications technologies are not a panacea for solving these problems, but they are a very important element in any workable solution. People cannot solve problems they do not know exist. Without democratized communications capabilities, it is much easier for “governments” to limit the visibility of such problems on the larger world stage.
> In syria the people die, in somalia they die and other places internet is there or not... this is politics not technical stuffs.
The boundary between politics and technical is not nearly as black and white as you would imply in this statement. As I said in the previous paragraph, internet is not a panacea, but it is an important element in solving these problems.
> So i do not the agree with you at all brother elkins.
What would you propose as a better alternative to the current open multi-stakeholder process?
Owen
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Tutu Ngcaba
> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
> South Africa
>
>
> On 12 May 2017 11:43 a.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>> wrote:
> The PDP allows anyone to submit any ideas and policies, irrespective of who they are, where they are from, and what their ideas are, in a free exchange of ideas and in the name of freedom of expression and freedom of speech.
> Some policies are pretty straight forward, make lots of sense and should simply be implemented. they don't need lots of discussion - more along the lines of - "why didn't I think and suggest that?".
>
> Other policies are simply way out and should be still-born - such as the PDP-BIS proposal, which destroys a number of the qualities of how the PDP currently runs.
> The "Internet Shutdown" policy has caused discussion around the world. This is proof of the multi-stakeholder approach at work (its being argued by multiple stakeholders, both for and against). The very fact that this policy has engendered so much debate does not indicate a problem with the policy, rather, it shows that the process works and is resulting in debate and discussion that is both constructive and healthy.
>
> On 12/05/2017 09:43, Arnaud AMELINA wrote:
>> +1 Dear Mirriam and Badru
>>
>> Cela sera fixé par notre projet de politique PDP-BIS.
>>
>> This will be fixed by our PDP-BIS policy proposal.
>>
>> @Saul, je confirme que cette politique de shutdown est inopportune sur le PDP, c'est une véritable perte de temps, car d'autres politique ssont sur la table du PDP et personne n'a encore réagit par rapport à elles et on tourne autour d'une politique dont tout le monde sait qu'elle n'aboutira pas, et on nous avance comme argument le débat que ça va susciter, c'est comme si on se moque de notre communauté de techniciens. Nous ne sommes pas Politiciens, laissons cet aspect à ceux qui en ont la compétence, pour en débattre, et nous nous serons là en appui à leur décision. Dicsutons sur les choes qui feront avancer afrinic eet non celles qui lui créeront des problèmes. JE voudrais inviter tous les membres de cette communauté à se concentrer sur les vrais missions d'Afrinic et débatre de son avenir. Merci pour votre conmpréhension.
>>
>>
>> @Saul, I confirm that this shutdown policy is inappropriate on the PDP, it is a real waste of time because other policies are on the PDP table and nobody has yet reacted with them and we turn Around to a policy that everyone knows will not succeed, and we are advanced as an argument the debate that will arouse, it is like we laugh at our community of technicians. We are not Politicians, we leave it to those who have the competence to debate it, and we will be there to support their decision. Let us discuss on things that will move AFRINIC forward instead of those that will create problems. I would like to invite all members of this community to focus on Afrinic's real missions and to discuss its future. Thank you for your understanding.
>>
>> Cordialement.
>>
>> Arnaud.
>>
>> 2017-05-12 7:10 GMT+00:00 Saul Stein <saul at enetworks.co.za <mailto:saul at enetworks.co.za>>:
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> Please can you explain how this is an abuse of the RPD?
>>
>>
>> We have a serious issue of internet shutdowns on our continent. The impact that it has on education, the economy etc is immeasurable!
>>
>> This should be of grace concern to all of us!
>>
>>
>> The authors of the policy have stated numerous times that this is an evolving proposal.
>>
>>
>> The important thing is that it is encouraging global debate on how to resolve this issue. THAT is what this proposal is about – ways to prevent this from happening.
>>
>>
>> Whatever solutions we come up with – but that can only happen with this debate, so I don’t see how it’s a waist!
>>
>>
>> Saul
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mirriam [mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com <mailto:mirriamlauren at yahoo.com>]
>> Sent: 11 May 2017 08:24 PM
>> To: Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com <mailto:pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>>; Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>>
>> Cc: General Discussions of AFRINIC <community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>; AfriNIC List <rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>> I totally agree with what Badru has stated and I really hope the PDP update policy proposal on the table before us can help to improve the Afrinic policy development process and environment notwithstanding quality of work so as to avoid such abuses of the pdp.
>>
>>
>> KR,
>>
>> Mirriam
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 10, 2017, 1:41:29 PM GMT+3, Tutu Ngcaba <pan.afrikhan at gmail.com <mailto:pan.afrikhan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Brother Elkins,
>>
>>
>> The ICANN chairman Steve said some concern of internet shutdown will undermine the missions of Icann and the Afrinic and they two have the potential power to do something in return.
>>
>>
>> The Afrinic Government Working Group AFGWG can work with the ICANN to achieve more mutlistakeholders talkings and meetings. This is what needs to be done in return.
>>
>> I ask the AFGWG to do some taking to the ICANN and they can meet our governments for education on economic important of Internet.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Tutu Ngcaba
>> Kwazulu Techno Hubs
>> South Africa
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2017 12:53 p.m., "Mark Elkins" <mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za>> wrote:
>>
>> I downloaded the complete video from RIPE and watched it a few times. I was also watching live.
>>
>> Its large - but if you can do, download it and watch it.
>>
>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv e/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti- Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Ration ale-20170508-171822.mp4 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archive/video/Andrew_Alston-Anti-Shutdown_Policies_-_The_Rationale-20170508-171822.mp4>'
>>
>>
>> Then again, when the Chairman of ICANN stands up and says that ICANN can help.
>>
>> "Hi, my name is Steve Crocker, I am Chairman of ICANN and I'm here to help you. (Regarding) take out of the root the affected ccTLD names" and he then volunteered assistance from ICANN staff - also saying it would take between two and five years to get to a decision whether to proceed or not.
>>
>> The current policy concept does not go that far - but to me - certainly suggests that the idea of punitive actions against governments is worth looking at.
>>
>> I regard it like a nuclear bomb. When in the hands of sane people (RIR's and ICANN), it is a threat - to persuade bad actors to have second thoughts against cutting people off from access to the Internet. If governments choose to cut people off from access to the Internet for political reasons, to me this is undermining the core mission of ICANN and the RIR's, both of whom have the potential power to do something in return. We need to enable that power from being simply a potential to being ready for use and hope its never needed to be used.
>>
>>
>> On 10/05/2017 11:01, Noah wrote:
>>
>> Mmmm on the contrary seems like most folk on the floor disagreed with the contraversial policy and its approach no matter how much the Arthors seek for better ways to improve it.
>>
>>
>> Some suggested multistake holder engagement and in particular Leslie Daigle comments on the floor are worth taking into serious considerations by the way.
>>
>>
>> Leslie Daigle of ISOC agrees that there is a problem. She has concerns but sounded to me more would like to see something. She just doesn't want to see dialogue being undermined by this policy.
>>
>> Perhaps talk is not enough?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The best comment in my opinion was from the Alan Durand who reminded everyone what the real core mission of the RIR community is, and that is....
>>
>>
>> I'd say he was more worried about the policy being used for much more than it is currently intended for. (referenced to the colour of people's hair as a reason to cut them off the Internet).
>>
>>
>>
>> "To allocate resources and maintain the accuracy of the database".PERIOD. [1]
>>
>>
>> Noah
>>
>>
>> [1]I have had in the past folk state statements like "How some ome runs his network is none of anyones business and in that matter policing the network is none of AFRINICs business"
>>
>>
>> On 10 May 2017 10:39 a.m., "Andrew Alston" <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.c om <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks Marcus,
>>
>>
>> Just some feedback for the community.
>>
>>
>> It's been a great experience here at RIPE and some of the ideas given and the extensive discussions following the presentation referred to by Marcus have been both useful and informative.
>>
>>
>> Draft 2 will be submitted shortly very much in line with what I presented in that presentation - and before the 7 day deadline as per the PDP so we can discuss on that basis.
>>
>>
>> Following the meeting in Nairobi, I suspect we will then be gathering still further input and further drafts will follow, if there is no consensus found on the floor for the draft 2 that will be submitted.
>>
>>
>> I think for myself, the most important thing I have seen at RIPE so far, is the huge willingness by people from every walk of life to engage in dialog and discussion over this, and it was heartening to see both my own positions and the positions of those I was discussing with shift as explanations were given and questions were asked and answered. Since giving that presentation I have barely had a minute to think as people approached me to talk this through - and I really hope to see such engagement in Nairobi, because it truly showed the benefit of a multi stakeholder approach where open dialog and communication can happen, even in the absence of agreement and in the face of controversial material where people hold strong and emotive views.
>>
>>
>> I look forward to the discussions on the floor of the PDP and engaging with all of you to hear your thoughts and views and finding the right solution to the issue.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> From: Marcus K. G. Adomey <madomey at hotmail.com <mailto:madomey at hotmail.com>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 9, 2017 11:48:42 PM
>> To: rpd at afrinic.net <mailto:rpd at afrinic.net>; community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>> Subject: [Community-Discuss] Controversial anti-shutdown policy discussed at RIPE
>>
>>
>> Dear Colleagues.
>>
>>
>> You might want to see the presentation of the controversial draft anti-shutdown policy (AFPUB-2017-GEN-001-DRAFT-01) at a recent RIPE meeting. I found the questions/comments from the RIPE community similar to that shared by many on the RPD, mostly about the inappropriateness of such policy in our region… or any other for that matter. Enjoy watching it.
>>
>>
>> https://ripe74.ripe.net/archiv es/video/41/ <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>>
>> <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>> Archives – RIPE 74 <https://ripe74.ripe.net/archives/video/41/>
>> ripe74.ripe.net <http://ripe74.ripe.net/>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
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> --
> Mark James ELKINS - Posix Systems - (South) Africa
> mje at posix.co.za <mailto:mje at posix.co.za> Tel: +27.128070590 <tel:+27%2012%20807%200590> Cell: +27.826010496 <tel:+27%2082%20601%200496>
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