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[rpd] New proposal - "Out-Of-Region Use of AFRINIC Internet Number Resources" (AFPUB-2014-GEN-002-DRAFT-01)
mainanoa at gmail.com
Fri Jul 11 00:43:52 UTC 2014
On 11 July 2014 02:17, Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
> On Jul 10, 2014, at 15:35 , Noah Maina <mainanoa at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 11 July 2014 00:49, Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>
>> Owen, for the record.
>> My employer is an African multi-national. How do African companies
>> expanding outwards help Africa? Lets stop for a second and think about
> I did not say or mean to imply that African companies expanding outwards
> did not help Africa.
> However, I would argue that if they do so by gaining a competitive
> over the "natives" in other regions using resources intended to serve the
> community, they are doing a larger disservice to the AfriNIC community than
> any potential benefit achieved for that same community.
> Firstly, we need infrastructure in foreign countries for peering, for
>> transit routers, for providing circuits to people on the African continent
>> who want to reach foreign entities. Without infrastructure off the
>> continent, how exactly do we provide end to end service to other African
>> companies looking for things like EoMPLS circuits with the A side in
>> Africa and the B side outside of Africa? Or would you rather that we
>> played the half circuit game at additional expense to the African
> The proposed policy provide for more than enough address space use outside
> of the AfriNIC service region to cover this. Nobody is disputing the need
> for this.
> What I was talking about (and what Andrew stated, or at the very least
> was using AfriNIC issued resources to expand services sold to customers
> of the AfriNIC service region.
> Would you rather than African multi-national ISP’s didn’t have
>> international points of presence where they could peer off their traffic
>> at exchanges internationally and reduce the cost of service provision to
>> their african customers? Would your rather we wait for people to bring
>> the content to us at inflated prices rather than going to the source and
>> fetching it ourselves?
> Of course not and I would never support a policy that prevented this.
> that's got nothing to do with the discussion at hand. The policy being
> allows more than sufficient extra-regional resource utilization to
> this. Andrew's stated opposition implied a much larger need for
> resource utilization and a complaint about being unable to obtain that
> from the other regions.
> If we're strictly talking about peering infrastructure, then, as a matter
> of fact,
> you can obtain a /22 from RIPE and a /22 from APNIC for that purpose and
> I believe that would more than cover most such needs. Especially since
> at IXPs usually involves obtaining the IXP address from the IXP itself and
> consume your resources.
> All of these things require international infrastructure, it has to be
>> numbered, and as you yourself have admitted, V4 is still a major part of
>> this. Of course I can get V6 resources out of region, but the V4
>> resources are still necessary and getting those for international
>> infrastructure without using AfriNIC resources is not possible right now.
> And all of this is a red herring compared to the discussion that led to my
> I might also point out, there are vast tracts of the African continent
>> still only served by Satellite, if the Satellite hub is in Europe and the
>> customers themselves are in Africa, if I am routing the space to the
>> Satellite hub in Europe, where are the resources being used? Its
> And everyone has stated that this policy should not be interpreted as to
> that. The consideration should be based on the location of the end
> customer using
> the resources, not the media translation gateways in between.
> I might also point out, that large African multi-nationals that are
>> expanding also provide a LOT of employment on the continent and the
>> expansion off continent helps drive the employment ON the continent (for
>> example, NOC’s based in Africa for international networks, that employ
>> large numbers of people in Africa, for the betterment of the African
> And here we hit the first point which is actually relevant to the ongoing
> discussion and not a red herring. Rather than repeat my first paragraph
> I will simply incorporate it by reference.
> @Andrew +++++++1 x1000. Rest your case, you need not to say more :-)
>> ...I raise a glass.
> I wish you the best of luck in this regard.
> IMHO, I don’t support this policy even a bit since it doesn't even take
> into consideration the operational reality on the ground. Besides, hardly
> 20% of the resources obtained from Afrinic are used outside Africa by
> entities registering in Africa with operations in Africa mainly for
> infrastructure seated outside Africa....
> use in other regions through a rather interesting VPN-based dodge to the
How many would go that far, lets be realistic....
Naked truth, the biggest market for IP now is in Africa and she continues
> to develop her Internet!!!!
> Naked truth, bigger or smaller doesn't matter. There's enough demand and
> enough money in the other regions to bleed Africa's IPv4 number resources
> dry rather quickly.
That is besides the point and folks at AfriNIC are not sleeping, they
work!!!....This resources shall be used here and by operators in Africa to
expand both within and outside.
> So if this policy is for restricting number resource usage to a certain %
> outside Africa, then where exactly are you going to use them v4 IP's, In
> Europe, North America, Asia, where the internet is already developed and
> folks are already getting used to v6, not a chance.
> You bet. Address consumption and trading is continuing in those regions
> and the internet continues to grow in those regions. Used to IPv6? I wish.
> Progress is being made, but it's still nowhere near where it needs to be.
There is somewhat compelling evidence vs our region....that is not
nothing...Facebook, Google are a good example, end users always catch up
since they dont run the network, they consume the service...
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