[rpd] New proposal - "Out-Of-Region Use of AFRINIC Internet Number Resources" (AFPUB-2014-GEN-002-DRAFT-01)

[Andrew Alston]

Errr,

Owen, for the record.

My employer is an African multi-national.  How do African companies
expanding outwards help Africa?  Lets stop for a second and think about
this.

Firstly, we need infrastructure in foreign countries for peering, for
transit routers, for providing circuits to people on the African continent
who want to reach foreign entities.  Without infrastructure off the
continent, how exactly do we provide end to end service to other African
companies looking for things like EoMPLS circuits with the A side in
Africa and the B side outside of Africa? Or would you rather that we
played the half circuit game at additional expense to the African consumer?

Would you rather than African multi-national ISP’s didn’t have
international points of presence where they could peer off their traffic
at exchanges internationally and reduce the cost of service provision to
their african customers?  Would your rather we wait for people to bring
the content to us at inflated prices rather than going to the source and
fetching it ourselves?

All of these things require international infrastructure, it has to be
numbered, and as you yourself have admitted, V4 is still a major part of
this.  Of course I can get V6 resources out of region, but the V4
resources are still necessary and getting those for international
infrastructure without using AfriNIC resources is not possible right now.

I might also point out, there are vast tracts of the African continent
still only served by Satellite, if the Satellite hub is in Europe and the
customers themselves are in Africa, if I am routing the space to the
Satellite hub in Europe, where are the resources being used?  Its
ambigious.

I might also point out, that large African multi-nationals that are
expanding also provide a LOT of employment on the continent and the
expansion off continent helps drive the employment ON the continent (for
example, NOC’s based in Africa for international networks, that employ
large numbers of people in Africa, for the betterment of the African
community)

Think it through for a second…

Andrew


On 7/11/14, 12:39 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen at delong.com> wrote:

>
>On Jul 10, 2014, at 12:26 , Andrew Alston
><Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> Except for the fact that there are massive African organisations that
>>are
>> expanding both inwards and outwards.
>>
>> I use Liquid (my employer as an example).
>>
>> We operate the largest cross border fiber network in Africa, and operate
>> our own infrastructure in:
>>
>> Zimbabwe
>> Zambia
>> Uganda
>> Rwanda
>> Tanzania
>> Burundi
>> Botswana
>> South Africa
>> Kenya
>>
>> And are expanding all the time.  That being said, we also operate points
>> of presence in London and the UAE, and are growing both inwards and
>> outwards.  I cannot get space from RIPE, I cannot get space from APNIC,
>>so
>
>Why not?  All you need to do is apply. This claim is patently false.
>
>Both of them have plenty of space available in modern internet numbers.
>
>As to IPv4, yes, those regions are exhausted. In the case of APNIC, you
>can transfer
>numbers from a willing provider to your presence in the AP region from
>either APNIC
>or ARIN regions under existing policy. In RIPE, you can also transfer
>numbers from a
>willing provider within the RIPE region. RIPE has chosen in their policy
>process to opt
>out of being able to transfer numbers from the ARIN region. I don't know
>if APNIC
>will transfer numbers to RIPE or not. I have not done the necessary
>comparison and
>correlation of the APNIC and RIPE policies. This is the post exhaustion
>environment
>in each of the exhausted regions and that will soon apply to LACNIC and
>ARIN too.
>
>If the AfriNIC community allows expansion into other regions to be fueled
>by use of
>resources delegated to AfriNIC to manage, then that will reduce the
>resources available
>for deployment within the region.
>
>It is up to the AfriNIC community to decide whether it wants to use its
>resources to
>increase the ability of organizations to expand outside of Africa or
>whether it wants
>to preserve its resources for the betterment of the population living
>within the region.
>
>Personally, I tend to favor the latter, but I don't live within the
>region, so my voice in
>this regard can be taken with a grain of salt.
>
>I realize your employer stands to have a competitive advantage against
>the natives
>if it is allowed to take resources from AfriNIC and use them to provide
>services over
>IPv4 in those regions while their more local competitors have no IPv4
>addresses
>available to provide additional services, but I fail to see how that
>serves the interests
>of the AfriNIC community at large vs. the more narrow interests of your
>employer
>and to some extent, the people employed by your employer.
>
>> pray tell, how is the organisation meant to grow if we cannot use
>> legitimately applied for AfriNIC space off continent as we continue to
>> grow a massive multi-national network?
>
>You can use legitimately acquired addresses from those regions.
>
>> And for the record, everything we do is IPv6 enabled all the way to the
>> edge - so we make sure we¹re doing our part there as well!
>
>This is a very good thing, and I applaud it. Generally, Liquid strikes me
>as a good
>organization trying to do good things. However, what you have said above
>seems
>to me to depart from this down a road of self-interest at the potential
>expense of the
>AfriNIC community.
>
>Owen
>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/10/14, 7:47 PM, "Bill Woodcock" <woody at pch.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 10, 2014, at 9:19 AM, Nishal Goburdhan <ndg at ieee.org> wrote:
>>>> RIRs allocate resources to _organisations_ in their region.
>>>> if i look at some of the prefixes that i see at african exchange
>>>> points, i see a fair chunk of "international" space.  good for them, i
>>>> say.
>>>
>>> Well, not reallyŠ  We have an area of policy inconsistency between RIRs
>>> here, and I think it¹s going to cause a problem.
>>>
>>> Looking at ARIN policy, ARIN allocates space for use in the ARIN
>>>region.
>>> If you take ARIN-allocated space and use it out-of-region, you can¹t
>>>use
>>> it in a justification for more space.  That effectively means that
>>>using
>>> it out-of-region means you¹re cutting yourself off from further
>>> allocations, which effectively precludes doing it in any meaningful
>>> volume.
>>>
>>> What I believe I¹m hearing about AfriNIC policy is that it allocates
>>> space to organizations that are incorporated in Africa, but not to
>>> networks that operate in Africa.  That leaves a gap in policy, that
>>>fails
>>> to address the needs of networks that operate in Africa.  That in turn
>>> disincentivizes deployment in Africa.  If I can¹t get addresses from
>>> other RIRs to deploy in Africa, and I can¹t get addresses from AfriNIC
>>>to
>>> deploy in Africa, how do I deploy in Africa, other than by giving up my
>>> ability to request more addresses in a different region, which isn¹t
>>> sustainable either?
>>>
>>> Yes, all this becomes somewhat moot in an IPv6-only future
>>> economy-of-plenty, but that¹s a ways out, yet.
>>>
>>>                               -Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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