[AFRINIC-rpd] Commencement of the last call

[Andrew Alston]

Hi Nii,

I agree that we need to be flexible within the confines of what the
community requests, and commitments were made to the community to follow a
process after the community discussed this policy for months on this list
and then overwhelmingly with a larger number than currently has posted to
this list total supported the policy with some minor changes.  We dishonour
every member in that room if we go against what they agreed to and not
follow the process as agreed.

Secondly.  With regards to the questions raised.

A.) There were financial questions raised, which I answered, and I have yet
to receive a full reply that addresses the answers that were given
B.) There were questions about the Southern region getting more space rather
than the rest of the regions, there were answers given, and no response that
addresses what was said in those answers has been forthcoming
C.) There were questions raised about the transfer of space by Universities
to outside regions, answers were given, again, there has neither been an
acknowledgement of a firm dispute of those answers from opposing parties.

So, I would argue that if people wish to raise issues, and if myself and
other members of the community respond to those issues with answers, if the
issues still exist, then the questions must be asked as to the answers, and
the answers must be directly addressed, because we cannot come to agreement
or consensus if questions are being asked and answers are being rejected out
of hand without reasons for rejection of the answers.  Part of any consensus
process and indeed any debate is a cycle of questions asked, answers given,
and at that point, either answers accepted or further questions asked that
directly address the problems with the original answers given.  That is a
cyclic process until such time as agreement is reached.

So again, I ask those who are still objecting to go and read the answers
given, and should they not accept those answers, to state their objections
to those answers in a clear and concise manner with further questions or
clarifications that allow proper response, as again, this is part of the
procedure involved in finding common ground and right now, I would argue
that it is not being followed.

Being willing to accommodate opposing positions and being willing to
compromise does not mean giving in to unqualified positions, nor does it
mean accepting that answers given were simply insufficient and therefore
things should be changed automatically, it means debating until such time as
there is common ground and that means both sides have to listen to opposing
arguments and respond to the arguments raised.  In every case I believe I
have done that, I now await the questions and rebuttals to the answers
given.

That being said, I still stand by the fact that the last call must proceed
with the agree changes as per the process, and should the last call fail,
further major changes can be made.

Andrew


From:  Nii Narku Quaynor <quaynor at ghana.com>
Date:  Thursday 27 June 2013 9:13 AM
To:  Andrew Alston <alston.networks at gmail.com>
Cc:  Badru Ntege <ntegeb at one2net.co.ug>, "AfriNIC RPD MList."
<rpd at afrinic.net>
Subject:  Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] Commencement of the last call

Well....

We should be trying to find policy that people can live with so proponents
need be willing and flexible to improve their proposal at anytime in process
to gain support (this was pointed to earlier)

Refusal to accommodate opposing points of view hints it is being forced
through. To me it's not the numbers who support a proposal but those that
don't and why they don't

The board should not ratify a policy if it thinks it's a bad policy so make
the effort to get a good policy. You have the chance to do so with the given
input here

...we should not evoke technicalities of procedure rather community
consensus

On Jun 27, 2013, at 6:28, Andrew Alston <alston.networks at gmail.com> wrote:

> Badru,
> 
> This is not a personal issue at all, I would raise similar questions with
> anyone who I felt was attempting to move ahead outside of a community
> decision.  With regards to referencing you as the chair, Badru, if you like it
> or not, yes, you comment in your personal capacity however, it is incumbent on
> anyone to be cognisant of the positions they old and the fact that things are
> not viewed in isolation.  I point out that the board has to ratify policies
> passed by this community through the PDP process, and as such there is an
> inherent conflict of interest (perceived) in strong positions taken by the
> person chairing the very board that has to ratify, and as such like it or not
> your position DOES have impact.
> 
> Andrew
> 
> 
> From:  Badru Ntege <ntegeb at one2net.co.ug>
> Date:  Thursday 27 June 2013 7:46 AM
> To:  Andrew Alston <alston.networks at gmail.com>
> Cc:  Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com>, "AfriNIC RPD MList."
> <rpd at afrinic.net>
> Subject:  Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] Commencement of the last call
> 
> Andrew
> 
> Lets not turn this into a personal issue.   (you did not like it when some
> others tried it on you)
> 
> Do not try to intimidate by referencing my role.  At the end of the day I'm a
> member of the community just like everyone and nothing makes me different or
> wiser than anyone on this list.  So please stop referencing me as chair.  I
> think that is an attempt to intimidate.  Lets discuss openly.
> 
> I have not for one stopped the last call process.
> 
> The fact that we are on this thread and the subject line of this email means
> we are in last call.
> 
> I have engaged in discussion on the list to ask questions and raise what i see
> as pitfalls of a policy.
> 
> Last call does not specifically limit the areas of discussion.
> 
> Your email seems to be questioning my understanding of my role as a member of
> the community and also the other role that i play.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 7:33 AM, Andrew Alston <alston.networks at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Badru,
>> 
>>> > please note I'm allowed to discuss on this list in my individual capacity.
>> 
>> And I do not dispute this at all
>> 
>>> > But what I'm trying to do for all is to encourage open thinking and to
>>> allow for synergy.  however passionate one is towards a policy lets not be
>>> blind to some of the weak points of the policy and if
>>> > really we have the good of the entire community at hand we should be
>>> prepared to openly ask the questions.
>> 
>> And I agree we should ask the questions, and as you may have observed, I have
>> had no problems answering the questions, both here and in the face to face
>> meeting.
>> 
>>> > Being Chair does and should never mean that I'm the Almanac of all AfriNIC
>>> and internet policy.  I have enough Humility to say that i do not know
>>> everything and i have no problem saying here on the list.
>>> > We should all be open to share and learn from each other.
>> 
>> 100% agreed on this.  However, and this is where I have an issue.  I have
>> raised the fact that we have a procedure and requested that we follow it
>> multiple times on this list.  Be you chair, or be you posting in your
>> individual capacity however, you seem to have ignored this request multiple
>> times.  I also feel that while no person can have every policy memorised, any
>> chair of the board of an organisation like AfriNIC should be well versed in
>> the very procedures that govern this organisation, one of them is the policy
>> process that has stood the test of time in this organisation since day one.
>> I have raised the fact multiple times that we have a process, please let us
>> follow it.  I believe that when a commitment is made to the community in a
>> room of many people, that we will take something to last call with certain
>> changes as agreed in that meeting, that is what we should do.  Yes, we can
>> discuss alternatives and we can discuss the merits and de-merits, however, we
>> still need to see that last call through as was discussed and committed to
>> and not violate our own processes.  Should the policy fail to reach consensus
>> in last call, all alternatives discussed are open and at that point the
>> authors can choose to make further changes to attempt to find consensus or
>> can withdraw.  This has always been the process and I believe very strongly
>> we should follow it.
>> 
>>> > What some members are saying is that your policy however good intentioned
>>> it is needs some modifications.  I also think Alan(APB) did point that
>>> changes can be made to a policy during last call.
>> 
>> Last call allows for certain changes as agreed at the meeting, however, major
>> changes would require the policy to go back to a consensus vote at the
>> meeting and then a second last call period to my knowledge.  At this point I
>> would like to ask for a ruling from the PDWG chairs on this because in my
>> mind the process is pretty clear.  How far can you change something in last
>> call before it is no longer a last call.
> 
> As i said earlier if the intention is to truly get a policy that works for the
> community i see no problem with taking time to get a good sustainable policy.
> What is the HASTE ??
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>>> > If you look at all my posts you will find that though i have clearly
>>> stated that I'm not in support I'm asking us to think deeper and wider at
>>> what areas can make this proposal palatable to the whole community.
>> 
>> I am fully aware that you are not in support.  I am also however fully aware
>> that when this policy was put before the floor in the face to face meeting,
>> we had a limited number of objections, and the floor requested 2 changes.
>> Both of which have been made, and a possible third negotiation point on the
>> ratio.  When committing to making those changes, there were no objections.
>> Now, I 100% acknowledge that in last call anyone has the right to change
>> positions and consensus may not be reached in the event of a large number of
>> people changing those positions.  However, based on simple pure numbers of
>> people on this list posting, and based on the numbers in that room who voted
>> in favour of this policy, I still believe that we should follow what was
>> agreed in that meeting to its conclusion, and if that conclusion is that the
>> community has shifted position from what was in that room, then we can
>> revisit the rest of the policy with no issues in my mind, but to do otherwise
>> is to ignore the expressed will in that room and as a community based
>> organisation I do not feel that we should do that.  Be you posting in your
>> individual capacity or as chair of the board, I simply ask that you respect
>> the process and respect the agreements that were reached in that room.
> 
> I do not see where i have not respected the policy Andrew.  I asked questions
> and you and others have answered.
> 
> 
>> 
>>> > From an AfriNIC point of view the questions that need to be asked
>>> regardless of floor consensus i believe would be as follows
>> 
>>> > What is the effect of this proposal on the sustainability of AfriNIC ???
>>> > Does the proposal enable Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration
>>> for the whole community ??
>>> > Is the proposal Technically Sound and in line with generally acceptable
>>> practice  ??
>> 
>> Badru, sorry, I have to stop you here.  AfriNIC by the process, is requested
>> to perform an analysis on each and every proposal before it reaches the
>> floor.  It was done, the staff analysis was online and available for all to
>> see.  Are you telling me that AfriNIC failed to do its duty to this community
>> and perform that function as it was meant to do, and now, during last call,
>> suddenly wants to redo the analysis that was put before the community because
>> the job was not done sufficiently the first time?
> 
> Andrew Im actually subscribed to a number of other RIR pep lists and i see
> this same process and questions asked in last call.   I'm kind of puzzled by
> your belief that last call should be a smooth sail.
> 
>> 
>>> > My issue is that we all take one of two positions.  we either fight the
>>> proposal or blindly support.  I want us to look for the third alternative.
>>> Look at some of the points raised by members and see how we can take all
>>> > points and create a proposal even better than the original proposal.
>> 
>> And my issue is that at the meeting we agreed to certain changes, and were
>> willing to make them.  Before the meeting, for almost 6 months, this call was
>> on the list and was discussed EXTENSIVELY if you go back and look at the
>> archives, and where changes were requested they were made and answered.  The
>> proposal went to the floor where a larger number of people voted in favour
>> for this policy than the entire number of people who have posted on this list
>> in 2013 (Yes, I checked), and now what you are asking is that we violate the
>> defined AfriNIC process and ignore the will of those on the floor that this
>> go to last call with the changes requested and instead start looking at a
>> third option at this late stage.  As I have said, once the last call is
>> finalised, I have no problem if the policy does not pass consensus looking at
>> further major changes, but I am not prepared to make such changes that would
>> endanger the last call as was agreed to with the community.
>> 
>>> > if you saw the list sent out you will see that in Uganda only RENU seems
>>> to have a resource i would like more HEI's in my country to have the
>>> resources but would not like to have this at the expense of breaking the
>>> current system.
>>> > I do not think it is in the spirit of the internet and it's policies.
>> 
>> You make statements like this, yet I have read your arguments and I have
>> responded to each and every one of them.  I have looked at the financial
>> arguments, and I have responded with figures and facts based on AfriNIC's own
>> publications at the meeting.  You have not responded to the email or the
>> numbers contained therein.
> 
> I think Owen responded to your numbers issue quite well and i saw no reason to
> add to that.
> 
> 
>> I have looked at the issue raised where you claimed that it would allow
>> Universities to become ISP's and it has been responded to and demonstrated
>> that neither user classification or current policy would allow for this to
>> happen, yet you have not withdrawn that objection.
> 
> Andrew your claim about resources being taken off the continent would break
> the rules and spirit of allocation.  I was merely stating may be  not very
> well that even this policy can be open to abuse.   End user in writing does
> not mean end user in technicality.  at the end of the day abuse can happen.
> 
> 
>>  I have looked at the issue where you say that a University could export
>> their space and again, because the policy classifies Universities as end
>> users, it has been pointed out that this could not happen.  Each objection
>> you have raised has been responded to very carefully, and while you talk
>> about us not supporting blindly, I ask that you do not take the position
>> where you are determined to oppose without considering the merits of the
>> arguments contained in the answers to the questioned you raised, since in no
>> case when provided an answer that categorically proves that a question poses
>> a hypothetical that is inaccurate have you been willing to withdraw from the
>> particular question.
> 
> Im lost a question is stated for an answer which is subjective but gives the
> reader more information to make his judgement.  So why would i withdraw a
> question ??
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>>> > So all I'm asking once again is that with a bit of humility and all your
>>> technical and community spirits lets step back look at the policy in its
>>> entirety and openly find that third alternative that will bring the
>>> community together.
>> 
>> And again I state, should the policy not pass last call, I am more than happy
>> to make major revisions.  However, I will respect the process, the
>> demonstrated will of the community and the vast amounts of discussion had on
>> this policy since its inception and I wish to see this policy through to the
>> end of last call in the form that was agreed as per the process at the face
>> to face meeting, bar minor changes as agreed to in that meeting.
> 
> 
> And as earlier stated we are in last call process and we are merely asking
> questions for clarity.  Please do not get too defensive an please avoid using
> personality or intimidation tactics like questioning my integrity as chairman
> I think that is totally un called for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 6:47 PM, Andrew Alston <alston.networks at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Badru, I would oppose these changes in the last call period (Other than the
>>> ratio, which we have always openly stated is a point for further
>>> negotiations and hence I believe that can be changed within the confines of
>>> last call)
>>> 
>>> We took a policy to the floor for consensus, the consensus was granted, and
>>> the agreement from the floor was that THAT policy  with modifications as
>>> requested on the floor go to last call.
>>> 
>>> To change the policy to add additional elements would not be what we had
>>> agreed with the community in that room, and that was to table what was put
>>> before them.  We have to act within the policy and within the remit granted
>>> to us by the floor in Zambia, that is how the process is designed and how it
>>> is meant to work.  Further changes to the policy would have to go back to
>>> the floor at a subsequent meeting, and to change the policy and not proceed
>>> to last call and create a delay like that after committing in front of the
>>> community to taking the policy to last call with the changes they requested
>>> would in my view be disingenuous.  If this policy does not pass last call
>>> then we can relook at that then.
>>> 
>>> I would ask that you, as Chairman of Afrinic, respect the Afrinic process as
>>> defined.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From:  Badru Ntege <ntegeb at one2net.co.ug>
>>> Date:  Wednesday 26 June 2013 5:02 PM
>>> To:  Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com>
>>> Cc:  "AfriNIC RPD MList." <rpd at afrinic.net>
>>> Subject:  Re: [AFRINIC-rpd] Commencement of the last call
>>> 
>>> So sunday 
>>> 
>>> Are we prepared to change other areas like bring back some level of network
>>> justification.  Some how re-align with current practice as opposed to
>>> breaking all current practice ???
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   
>>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 5:49 PM, Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Thank you Badru, This is progress.
>>>> Thank you Badru. Perhaps we should return to the initial proposal of 3:1
>>>> before the invention of photoptab.
>>>> Mme Maye, what sayest thou?
>>>> Sunday.
>>>> On 26 Jun 2013 15:05, "Badru Ntege" <ntegeb at one2net.co.ug> wrote:
>>>>> Though totally not in support of the policy of allocating by numbers.  If
>>>>> this can make us start looking at this policy to make it more acceptable
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 4:18 PM, Sunday Folayan <sfolayan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>  > ii) his focus on south region without any provision of equity;
>>>>>> This statement has been addressed over and over. Indeed it cares more for
>>>>>> the other regions with lower entry barrier. We can lower the ratio to
>>>>>> 3:1, 2:1 even 0.5:1 if you will .... but you are not even proposing
>>>>>> anything!!
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I would propose  2:1  and would also be more stringent in that the entity
>>>>> must have infrastructure in place and also an existing or planned uplink
>>>>> to the internet within 2 months of allocation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Also i would expect stricter due diligence since we are proposing very
>>>>> subjective measures and criteria for allocation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> regards
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>  
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________ rpd mailing list
>>> rpd at afrinic.nethttps://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo.cgi/rpd
>> 
> 
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