[Community-Discuss] Demanding Clarification and/or apology from PTA

[Amin Dayekh]

Dont forget that the acts are related directly and simultaneously to their
allegations.

It is a course of time and good conduct that takes the enterprise to prove
their good standing and change the general perception.

Anyways I wish you well.


On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 11:06 AM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:26 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>
> You answered yes to my question, whereby I asked clearly rephrased here: a
> company offering bribe to people to vote in their favor, will this company
> be in a lny good standing or credible to talk about corruption again?
>
>
> Yes.
>
> Are you sure?
>
>
> Yes.
>
> Just because a company has committed some bad acts does not mean that
> every thing they say can be discounted or regarded as non-credible.
>
> If such were the case, nobody would ever buy Microsoft products, for after
> all, that company is a convicted felon.
>
> The California PUC regularly listens to PG&E despite their numerous felony
> convictions as a company.
>
>
> Owen, if I ask you today to take $100 to vote for me in the upcoming
> election in Camaros to be MP, and after a few days you see me in the news
> lecturing about corruption and pointing fingers at people whom i am
> labeling as corrupted, that is ok by you and you will accept my word?
>
>
> It is certainly OK by me.
>
> Whether or not I will accept your word will depend on a great many factors
> not in evidence in the current discussion, so I cannot give a certain
> answer to that last question, which is pretty much what I said in the
> previous response below.
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 8:19 AM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 18, 2022, at 00:00 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>
>> Good Morning Owen,
>>
>> There is something i wanted to ask you about, but please give me a short
>> answer and straight forward:
>>
>> In your opinion, an organization that is offering bribe to people in
>> order to get their votes, in order to influence the outcome of the
>> elections to her favor in Camaros, - will that organization be trustworthy ?
>>
>>
>> With the limited information in your question, it’s impossible to form a
>> complete opinion, but probably not.
>>
>> - Will that organization have any right again to lecture about corruption
>> while it is promoting the culture of corruption (allegedly as per above if
>> it is true)?
>>
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> - will you trust any word from that organization?
>>
>>
>> Unknown, insufficient data provided.
>>
>> - will you have faith and rely on their intensions that they are upright?
>>
>>
>> I rarely have faith or rely on upright intentions of any organization.
>>
>> I am not pointing any finger at you , rather i am just seeking your
>> opinion pls.
>>
>>
>> My opinion is mostly unformed as insufficient data is given in your
>> question.
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2022 at 7:30 AM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 16, 2022, at 22:26 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not replying to this news paper, nor I have time to read it all.
>>>
>>> I will also ask you to remember your statement here, ( the resource
>>> holder are pushing for a transfer policy) i will also prove you wrong!
>>>
>>>
>>> I look forward to your attempt to do so.
>>>
>>> I find it amusing how you have cherry picked what you respond to while
>>> ignoring the most salient points in the prior messages to the point where
>>> when I limit it to the salient points, you choose to ignore the entire
>>> message rather than make a cogent response.
>>>
>>> Owen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 4:40 AM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 12:00 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Owen,
>>>> for the sake of time, I will quote and reply and highlighted in red
>>>> from your ext
>>>>
>>>> *quote: ( Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their
>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market. ) *you used
>>>> the term sell, in another reply you denied selling, anyway whatever the
>>>> term is, this should be governed by the rir, there should be an application
>>>> with the knowledge of the rir and justification of the use, just like when
>>>> you apply to RIR directly, not an unmonitored process. Let me remind us
>>>> here of the difference between inter-rir and LIR to another member. this
>>>> step was taken by many rir "inter rir transfer" who own majority of the
>>>> IPV4, and to regulate the transfers and continue to monitor the ipv4,
>>>> closing the door on black and grey market. let me remind us also that such
>>>> cases peculiar to need and in cases of bankruptcy or whatever reason the
>>>> company might be dissolved. Also let me remind us all the ip resources are
>>>> assigned "not sold" to lir based on NEED, justified need.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Neither Larus nor Cloud Innovation is selling resources received from
>>>> AFRINIC… I stated that many other resource holders wish to do so and that
>>>> is one of the reasons that those resource holders are pushing for a
>>>> transfer policy.
>>>>
>>>> This is not inconsistent, it is your inability to differentiate and/or
>>>> your failure to look past your efforts to ascribe the most sinister
>>>> possible motives to every statement I make.
>>>>
>>>> The RIR doesn’t govern anything. The community governs the RIR and the
>>>> RIR is supposed to administer the registry according to the policies set by
>>>> the community and according to its bylaws which are controlled by the
>>>> membership of the RIR.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it is this fundamental misunderstanding of who is specifically
>>>> supposed to be empowered in the governance of the internet and as a result
>>>> the RIRs that is driving some of your other misstatements.
>>>>
>>>> For clarity:
>>>>
>>>> ICANN/PTI in its role performing the IANA operates the central registry
>>>> for IPv4 addresses, IPv6 addresses, and ASNs (among other things). It does
>>>> so according to global policies which are set by the RIRs acting in concert
>>>> through the Address Supporting Organization, specifically the ASO AC, which
>>>> is synonymous with the NRO NC.
>>>>
>>>> Each RIR receives resources from the IANA central registry according to
>>>> its justified need and pursuant to those policies mentioned above.
>>>>
>>>> Each RIR distributes those resources to its subscribers (members or
>>>> not, depending on the RIR’s specific policies) according to the policies
>>>> set in the RIR by its community and according to the bylaws of the RIR set
>>>> by its members.
>>>>
>>>> Each RIR is expected to operate within the policies created by its
>>>> membership and according to its bylaws. When an RIR fails to do so, it
>>>> becomes far more dangerous than is expected.
>>>>
>>>> Some RIR subscribers are LIRs (Local Internet Registries). LIRs provide
>>>> address space to their customers (usually for a fee) whether in
>>>> relationship with connectivity services or as a separate product.
>>>>
>>>> Some RIR subscribers are end users and simply use the address space
>>>> they receive from the RIR directly.
>>>>
>>>> Every RIR except AFRINIC has an inter-RIR transfer policy at this
>>>> point. Yes, the recipient needs to show need in the case of an inter-RIR
>>>> transfer.
>>>>
>>>> There are many different reasons organizations want to be able to
>>>> engage in inter-RIR transfers and I enumerated several of them. You chose
>>>> to focus on a single one because that is the one you hope to be able to
>>>> twist into something sinister.
>>>>
>>>> quote: ( *.... RIPE-NCC should be going after a number of companies
>>>> who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued space. Note
>>>> that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be an issue.
>>>> This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa is a
>>>> fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC and
>>>> has never received serious attention in any other RIR.) *Answer: AfriNIC
>>>> got the smallest portion of ipv4 and it is called AFRICAN etc... enforcing
>>>> a policy "which does not exist as of now" to transfer inter RIR or sell
>>>> will be suicide to the continent's digital future as the world is at the
>>>> scarcity of IPV4, my view. Rather, Auditing the existing delegations and
>>>> retrieval is what is supposed to happen. in the meantime, the companies you
>>>> are referring to are companies of legitimate presence, not ip brokers and
>>>> have ASNs. What is applicable to RIPE or ARIN is not necessarily applicable
>>>> to AfriNIC, they can enforce any policy and afrinic is at liberty to do
>>>> such, with the view of the little ip resources available and the big future
>>>> of Africa.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are opposed to an inter-RIR transfer policy, then so be it. That
>>>> has little or nothing to do with whether or not existing addresses
>>>> registered to an organization by AFRINIC are allowed to be used outside of
>>>> AFRICA or not.
>>>>
>>>> However, the policy that does exist now clearly does allow AFRINIC
>>>> addresses to be utilized out of region virtually without restriction. A
>>>> plain text reading of section 6 of the bylaws makes this quite clear. A
>>>> plain text reading of the CPM finds only one place where this is
>>>> contradicted and it applies ONLY to addresses issued after the activation
>>>> of the Soft Landing policy.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to conduct legitimate audits, feel free. If you wish to
>>>> abide by the legitimate outcome of those audits when they show legitimate
>>>> utilization according to the CPM, the RSA, and the bylaws, I’ll fully
>>>> support that. However, use out of region does not violate any of the terms
>>>> in any of those documents unless the addresses were issued to the
>>>> organization after the activation of the soft landing policy.
>>>>
>>>> AFRINIC is free to enforce any policy which has been adopted by the
>>>> community and ratified by the board. There is no policy restricting the
>>>> location of utilization of addresses which meets that test at this time.
>>>>
>>>> *quote: (AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the
>>>> geographical restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation
>>>> from you.)* I did not make any statement about winning on geographical
>>>> grounds, why are you putting words in my mouth that I did not say? who is
>>>> misinforming now?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You stated: "AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me
>>>> here to refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa
>>>> then why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the
>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod
>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the
>>>> Judicial System. “
>>>>
>>>> Your claim is that AFRINIC should have already lost all cases on
>>>> geographic basis if my statement was true. I pointed out that AFRINIC has
>>>> neither lost nor won because the cases that relate to this matter have not
>>>> yet concluded. I did not put words in your mouth, I responded to what you
>>>> actually said.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> quote : (....soft landing) Soft landing was very good in other rir if
>>>> you really wish to compare, refer to ARIN website and see how soft landing
>>>> was easy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ARIN never passed a soft landing policy and it worked out quite well
>>>> there, IMHO.
>>>>
>>>> However, the only mention I have made regarding soft landing in any of
>>>> these statements is to mention that it is the only policy with geographical
>>>> restrictions on utilization codified in the policy. I’ve also pointed out
>>>> that said policy does not apply to any addresses issued to Cloud Innovation.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *quote : ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or
>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the
>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.)*  did
>>>> i say you? did i point any finger to you? why are you always whining and
>>>> dtrying to get in the center of attention as if the whole world is
>>>> revolving because of you and around you? I said : *Anyone *can
>>>> convince *himself with any lie* and convince the minions involved in
>>>> this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to spread lie),
>>>> did you see you or me or owen or amin in this statement?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You made the following direct statement in a message sent directly to
>>>> me as well as an open list:
>>>> "Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions
>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to
>>>> spread lie)”
>>>>
>>>> In context, it is quite clear you were intending to level this as a
>>>> direct accusation towards me. Your use of weasel words and attempted
>>>> evasions notwithstanding, at least I have the courage to own what I say and
>>>> take responsibility for it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *quote: ( I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or
>>>> client. This statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the
>>>> list, and is, frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence. ) *Again:
>>>> Did I say you published any video? did I point any finger at you? did I
>>>> mention you?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You said: "When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he
>>>> should provide evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and
>>>> under the table corrupting the members to buy Votes.”
>>>>
>>>> You said this in an email directed to me and copied to an open list.
>>>>
>>>> So in effect, yes, you did claim I published a video, you did point a
>>>> finger presumably at me, and by having my name as the target of your email,
>>>> yes, you did mention me for all practical purposes.
>>>>
>>>> My email was about PTA, our legal team communicated with them on their
>>>> website in Pakistan and the Website of the Embassy in Mauritius and through
>>>> a Letter TO THE embassy here, and will send further to the
>>>> embassies/commission/high commission/consulate (if any) in all African
>>>> Region, so may I understand what involved you here? Are you from Pakistan
>>>> or the spokesperson of PTA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In terms of the subsequent emails in this discussion, you put my name
>>>> in the To: field of your email. If you didn’t intend to involve me, why did
>>>> you do so?
>>>> In terms of the original message, you made a public comment about the
>>>> letter being sent on behalf of a “fraudulent and misleading organization”,
>>>> so I felt obliged to point out your own misleading information that you
>>>> have attempted to promulgate in this same forum and with your own misguided
>>>> and misleading video.
>>>>
>>>> I will note, that you did not address the following component of my
>>>> previous message:
>>>>
>>>> You wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to
>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i
>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions
>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To which I responded:
>>>>
>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error and
>>>> be specific.
>>>>
>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You carefully avoided answering this… Is it perhaps because you have no
>>>> answer here? You could not find an actual misquote?
>>>>
>>>> I find three messages into this conversation that this statement: "I
>>>> have no time to waste on endless discussions as the 2nd party is very sure
>>>> is justifying a wrong cause.”
>>>> is truly telling as apparently I am not such a second party and
>>>> therefore perhaps you are admitting by your actions that I do not actually
>>>> have a wrong cause. If so, this is progress.
>>>>
>>>> Owen
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 6:31 PM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 15, 2022, at 09:22 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Owen,
>>>>>
>>>>> Don’t rush, all in good time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes Misleading the public on claims and claims and claims with no
>>>>> single piece of evidence!
>>>>>
>>>>> AfriNic acted according to the Bylaw and court, allow me here to
>>>>> refresh your memory, if the ipv4 is not restricted to ise in Africa then
>>>>> why the proposals for inter RIR transfer and Other proposals from the
>>>>> Meeting which are available online? If that is allowed then AfriNic shouod
>>>>> have lost all cases. What is happening in Mauritius is an abuse of the
>>>>> Judicial System.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Because many resource holders wish to be able to sell their
>>>>>> underutilized resources in a worldwide secondary market.* Other
>>>>>> companies wish to be able to obtain addresses from that same market once
>>>>>> the artificially constrained AFRINIC free pool is exhausted. Because some
>>>>>> companies would prefer to consolidate their global resources from multiple
>>>>>> RIRs to a single contract with a single RIR. There are a variety of reasons
>>>>>> that have absolutely nothing to do with any idea of geographic restriction
>>>>>> on usage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If what you say is true, then RIPE-NCC should be going after a number
>>>>>> of companies who are operating in Africa using primarily RIPE-NCC issued
>>>>>> space. Note that this is not an issue and nobody has ever claimed it to be
>>>>>> an issue. This allegation that AFRINIC addresses are restricted to Africa
>>>>>> is a fiction that has only ever been promulgated in the context of AFRINIC
>>>>>> and has never received serious attention in any other RIR.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> AFRINIC has not won or last any cases yet regarding the geographical
>>>>> restriction of IP Utilization. This is more misinformation from you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I expect that with regard to that particular issue, AFRINIC will lose,
>>>>> as a plain text reading of the governing documents does not support such aa
>>>>> restriction except in the case of addresses issued after the activation of
>>>>> the soft landing policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is happening in Mauritius is a member attempting to defend their
>>>>> rights under the contract they signed against a board that is misconstruing
>>>>> the bylaws and acting outside of its authority.
>>>>>
>>>>> The board has repeatedly lost, though it has achieved a few procedural
>>>>> victories. Despite its victories, the board remains subject to a series of
>>>>> injunctions preventing it from taking any of multiple illegal actions it
>>>>> has attempted, including its attempt to run a rigged election. Most of the
>>>>> cases are still undecided.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone can convince himself with any lie and convince the minions
>>>>> involved in this issue who have been (mislead) and unfortunately (paid to
>>>>> spread lie)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not and will not lie on behalf of any employer or client. This
>>>>> statement is an ad hominem attack, is inappropriate to the list, and is,
>>>>> frankly, a libelous accusation without evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>> When someone accuses an organization of corruption, he should provide
>>>>> evidence, not just a video, especially if he/she/it and under the table
>>>>> corrupting the members to buy Votes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’ve made no videos, so I can only assume you are referring to someone
>>>>> else here… Perhaps yourself?
>>>>>
>>>>> If you think the misquotes you sent before are convincing, maybe to
>>>>> your good self, but not to me and i did not reply as I usualy say what i
>>>>> want and walk, reason being I have no time to waste on endless discussions
>>>>> as the 2nd party is very sure is justifying a wrong cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What misquote, exactly? Please point to where my quote was in error
>>>>> and be specific.
>>>>>
>>>>> I literally copied and pasted the text of section 6 of the bylaws.
>>>>>
>>>>> By the way, I did not mention anyone in my email except PTA so which
>>>>> company you are talking about?!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was talking about you and the misinformation contained in your
>>>>> statements. I thought that was clear from the context.
>>>>>
>>>>> Owen
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2022 at 5:11 PM Owen DeLong <owen at delong.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2022, at 14:32 , Amin Dayekh <admin at megamore.ng> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear members,
>>>>>> my attention was drawn to another misleading video of known sources
>>>>>> who are taking maliciously all steps against the Members of AfriNIC and
>>>>>> AfriNIC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in the Video I noticed a misleading statement about the "Government
>>>>>> of Pakistan" but when i paused and looked at the document it is the
>>>>>> Pakistan tELECOM authority and not the government itself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am writing this post following an email sent to the Pakistan
>>>>>> telecommunication Authority aka PTA, through their website to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a- ask, have you really drafted and sent that letter?
>>>>>> b- inquire, on what basis have you sent that letter? have you at
>>>>>> least communicated with AFRINIC TO HEAR THEIR PART OF THE STORY?
>>>>>> c- raise a solid query with regards to their breach of our
>>>>>> sovereignty as an African continent, Regions, Countries, and Nations
>>>>>> through the alleged Letter sent to the government of Mauritius in support
>>>>>> of a fraudulent misleading organization requiring some details on how
>>>>>> Africa's IPV4 addresses ended and are in USE in Pakistan, which, as per the
>>>>>> last time I checked, is not an African country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Misleading? As in the misleading claim that AFRINIC issued addresses
>>>>>> are somehow restricted to use in Africa when nothing in the bylaws, RSA, or
>>>>>> CPM says so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You continue to repeat this claim despite repeated clarifications and
>>>>>> corrections on the fallacious nature of the claim. Clearly, you are the one
>>>>>> engaged in a campaign of disinformation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Owen
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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