[Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum

Tue Oct 4 20:00:55 UTC 2016

To be honest, I just read the beginning of your email. Many other important
things to do.

Just to say: for a resource member who really doesn't care about how
AfriNIC is managed/governed and just wants to get its resources (and there
is a load of them if you look at meetings attendance and participation in
the mailing lists), it makes a huge difference between looking at
candidates profiles before logging in to vote and signing a pre-filled form.

My last 2 cents on this. Members and the community should decide.

B.

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 7:53 PM, Andrew Alston <
Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> Speaking in my own personal capacity.
>
>
>
> Firstly – You don’t eliminate the risk of bought votes by limiting proxies
> – it makes absolutely zero difference – because the person could just as
> easily pay someone to vote a particular way electronically.
>
>
>
> Secondly – The reason that people give others proxies is often more than
> just votes – the voting aspect of it is just another element of the proxy
> that can be exercised at the same time.  Companies may well want their
> voices heard at an AGMM that they cannot be present at – so they issue a
> proxy and the individual carrying the proxy then speaks on their behalf *
> *AND** votes on their behalf
>
>
>
> Thirdly – If we determine that the current wording in the bylaws is
> invalid or out of sync with the act or has giant problems with it – the
> only way to fix that is to the fix the bylaws – and calling for this to be
> fixed won’t help until someone actually proposes new wording to fix the
> issue – and then sees if it will get the majority that is required for the
> bylaw change.   Personally, having read the responses on this list – I do
> not see a consensus for a proxy limitation at all – so I have my personal
> doubts that such a bylaw change would succeed – but it is still the only
> way to actually rectify the problem.  (Due to the fact that for all the
> reasons I have stated, even if we take the act out of the picture, the
> current bylaw limit is in my view invalid since proxies aren’t granted to
> members, they are granted to individuals).
>
>
>
> Note: I personally will have zero issue if someone attempts to put a
> special resolution for anything on the floor – and I would encourage people
> who really believe that this is limit SHOULD be there to do exactly that –
> attempt to fix the wording in the bylaws such that there is actually a
> legitimate limit.  I just doubt it would pass a 75% majority based on what
> I have seen on this list so far – where I see absolutely no consensus for
> such a limit.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Boubakar Barry <boubakarbarry at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, 4 October 2016 at 22:44
> *To: *Hytham El-Nakhal <hytham at tra.gov.eg>
> *Cc: *"community-discuss at afrinic.net" <community-discuss at afrinic.net>
>
> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
>
>
>
> In many countries, and not only in Africa, people buy votes and/or vote
> differently than instructed.
>
> By limiting the number of proxies one can carry, we won't eliminate this
> risk, but we would at least reduce it.
>
> I don't understand the logic whereby somebody trusts a third party more
> than him/herself? What is the electronic voting facility for?
>
> Yes, I know some will say everybody should be given the right to vote the
> way he/she wants (paper ballot paper onsite, electronic voting or proxy).
> No problem with that.
>
> But let's limit the risks by limiting the number of proxies one eligible
> voter can carry. There were good reasons for putting the limit.
>
> Boubakar
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Hytham El-Nakhal <hytham at tra.gov.eg>
> wrote:
>
> "Talking as a community member in my personal capacity"
>
> +1 Mark,
> I support the freedom for member to choose the way to cast his vote and to
> remove the restriction on the  total number of proxies that one member can
> carry (if 100 members trust one specific member so they all have equal
> rights to issue a proxy for him).
> I understand that this restriction is applied only for members who has the
> right to vote in the meeting as per article 12.12.viii , and not applied on
> non-member person who assigned as a proxy by members as per item 12.12.i &
> ii & vii the member is free to choose anyone as a proxy, I'm not a lawyer
> but just read the articles of AFRINIC bylaws.
>
> Thanks,
> Haitham
> ________________________________________
> From: Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>
> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2016 7:54 PM
> To: community-discuss at afrinic.net
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
>
>
> I don't think the Proxy issue would survive a legal challenge in any
> African country based on English (or Dutch) law.
>
> French law can be different but this is law about how a company operates
> and with a few minor exceptions (eg company stamps) - I'd expect this to
> be very similar the world over.
>
> I personally prefer freedom for the individual member to choose the way
> in which they want to vote, whether in person, via proxy (without
> restrictions) or via electronic voting.
>
> On 30/09/2016 19:13, Badru Ntege wrote:
> > Andrew
> >
> > On 30 Sep 2016, at 5:30 pm, Andrew Alston
> > <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
> > <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> No Omo,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Please read what Ashok said – the limitation **WILL NOT SURVIVE LEGAL
> >> CHALLENGE**
> >>
> >
> > Afrinic is a regional organisation if we are being shackled by
> > jurisdiction of registration we have 52 other jurisdictions.
> >
> > We have options. Let's remain very open and objective to what is best
> > for members.
> >
> > Consensus not legal shackles is what the Internet is built on.
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> The companies act does not ALLOW the limitation.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *From: *Omo Oaiya <Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net <mailto:Omo.Oaiya at wacren.net>>
> >> *Date: *Friday, 30 September 2016 at 17:29
> >> *To: *Andrew Alston <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
> >> <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>>
> >> *Cc: *Jean-Robert Hountomey <jrhountomey at gmail.com
> >> <mailto:jrhountomey at gmail.com>>, "community-discuss at afrinic.net
> >> <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>" <community-discuss at afrinic.net
> >> <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>>
> >> *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment - quorum
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> As you have repeated but that is by the way.  What is clear is that
> >> electronic voting has solved the issue with proxies so we don’t need
> >> them. If the companies act is restrictive and does not support better
> >> accountability, proxies can be limited to one per member to balance
> >> things out.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 30 Sep 2016, at 15:22, Andrew Alston
> >>     <Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com
> >>     <mailto:Andrew.Alston at liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Jean-Robert because proxies are enshrined in the companies act and
> >>     the act explicitly states that they cannot be removed irrespective
> >>     of what a company’s bylaws / constitution says.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     See fifth schedule section 6
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Andrew
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     *From: *Jean-Robert Hountomey <jrhountomey at gmail.com
> >>     <mailto:jrhountomey at gmail.com>>
> >>     *Date: *Friday, 30 September 2016 at 17:22
> >>     *To: *"community-discuss at afrinic.net
> >>     <mailto:community-discuss at afrinic.net>"
> >>     <community-discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:community-discuss@
> afrinic.net>>
> >>     *Subject: *Re: [Community-Discuss] Accountability assessment -
> quorum
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     Talking about Board Members election (1) and (2), why do we want to
> keep Proxies While we have Electronic voting ?
> >>
> >>     Proxies make sens when a member cannot attend the meeting in
> person, isn't what we wanted to solve with electronic voting?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     (1) http://afrinic.net/en/community/elections/bod-election/process
> >>
> >>     (2) http://afrinic.net/en/about/agmm/participate-vote
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 9/29/16 8:56 PM, Alan Barrett wrote:
> >>
> >>         On 30 Sep 2016, at 02:26, Mark Elkins <mje at posix.co.za>
> <mailto:mje at posix.co.za> wrote
> >>
> >>             The only time the Proxy Restrictions are enforced is for
> the Board
> >>
> >>             elections. Traditionally, the elections for the PDP
> Co-Chair is hands at
> >>
> >>             the meeting and the elections for the ASO-AC is by secret
> ballot by
> >>
> >>             those present.
> >>
> >>         Proxy restrictions apply to elections by the Members (Resource
> Members and Registered Members).  ASO-AC and PDWG elections are by the
> community or by the PDWG, not by the Members. Board elections and now
> Governance Committee elections are by the Members.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>         Alan Barrett
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>         _______________________________________________
> >>
> >>         Community-Discuss mailing list
> >>
> >>         Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> >>         <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> >>
> >>         https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     Community-Discuss mailing list
> >>     Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> >
> >>     https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> —
> >>
> >> Omo Oaiya
> >> CTO/Directeur Technique, WACREN
> >> Mobile: +234 806 4522778, +221 784 305 224
> >> Skype: kodion
> >> http://www.wacren.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Community-Discuss mailing list
> >> Community-Discuss at afrinic.net <mailto:Community-Discuss at afrinic.net>
> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss at afrinic.net
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> >
>
> --
> Mark James ELKINS  -  Posix Systems - (South) Africa
> mje at posix.co.za       Tel: +27.128070590  Cell: +27.826010496
> For fast, reliable, low cost Internet in ZA: https://ftth.posix.co.za
>
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