<html class="apple-mail-supports-explicit-dark-mode"><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">I think we are broadly in agreement Lu,<div><br></div><div>Using AI tools for drafting is something that humans can do and nobody here seems to object to that. Myself and Hendrik and others have freely acknowledged using Claude to analyse the mailing list content also. </div><div><br></div><div>But what has occurred here has been a co-ordinated list flooding campaign, possibly (highly likely) by fully automated AI bots. It’s filled a lot of inboxes and really annoyed a lot of people, and caused others to switch off just unable to digest such huge volumes of slop. </div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards</div><div>Ben</div><div><br id="lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 24 Jul 2026, at 10:01, Lu Heng <h.lu@anytimechinese.com> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div style="font-size:inherit"><div style="font-size:inherit">
<p>The discussion is focused on the wrong unit. What matters is not whether a message was drafted by a human or an AI, but whether it contributes a distinct, relevant, and evidence-based argument. The correct moderation targets are duplication, flooding, irrelevance, and unsupported claims—not the drafting tool. The practical solution is straightforward: place the policy, or each disputed clause, in the centre of a web interface; display the arguments for and against it on either side; and use AI to maintain a continuous summary, cluster repeated arguments, and identify genuinely new ones. Anyone should be free to submit a new argument or supporting evidence, while every AI classification remains visible and appealable. A basic prototype could be built in a day.</p>
<p>Whether humans should retain a monopoly over argumentation is a separate question. They have no principled claim to such a monopoly once machines can competently compare, organize, and summarize arguments at scale. More importantly, a human-only process does not preserve openness. Repeated interaction tends to produce a small, self-selecting clique that determines whose language, identity, and participation count, excludes outsiders, and eventually becomes insular and cult-like. This is mandate laundering: control over procedure is converted into an illegitimate claim of substantive authority. Once that happens, formal openness ceases to provide legitimacy. The RIR system may continue to exist in name, but its bottom-up model will have effectively ended.</p>
</div></div><br></div><div dir="auto"></div><div><br clear="all"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div>--<br>Kind regards.<br>Lu<br><br></div></div></div></div></div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 24, 2026 at 12:24 Ben Roberts - AfriNIC via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto">Mike,<div>You are trivialising the issue as a mere AI content problem. If it were just a case that some people are using AI writing tools then we would not be having this debate. </div><div><br></div><div>What we have seen is a co-ordinated Astroturfing attack of multiple anonymous gmails, bombarding the list with near identical yet largely meaningless essays all backing each other up. There may have been humans with keyboards sitting owning the gmails, but I’ve seen no evidence of “proof of life” behind the accounts. Not even basic pleasantries (e.g. “hello how are you”) or variation from the monotonic robot style. If it looks like an AI robot, quacks like an AI robot, then guess what, 9 times out of 10 it’s an AI robot. </div><div>So it’s entirely very probable that they are just AI agent robots running on Openclaw instances that are fully in control of the Gmail accounts. Or it could just be one Openclaw controlling multiple Gmails, which would explain the “hive mind” like co-ordinated and recycled paragraphs that are word for word recycled by member accounts of the collective. The “community” for policy development is supposed to be a community of humans. The known identifiable humans in the collective seem to have concencus that none of us have a problem with other known humans using AI tools to assist their writing. </div><div>It will be very easy to modify the CoC to clarify that list membership is restricted to real old fashioned humans sitting with computer gadgets that they use to post the list, while excluding autonomous computer devices running their own writing/posting programs in absence of human creativity. </div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards</div><div>Ben</div><div><br></div><div><br id="m_-1482366586249560987lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On 23 Jul 2026, at 22:09, Mike Burns via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi Noah,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Yes you are telling everybody that you have had enough of it. Fair enough.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Yes, I am seeing no issue using AI unless it is used at cross-purposes of the list. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I don’t think the use of AI in this context has reached that level, and also I don’t think it has been very effective.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I think in the future AI will write more effective messages to the list, with or without human intervention.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I will read those effective messages and argue against, or accept the arguments made.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Regards,<br>Mike<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> <br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2026 1:41 PM<br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b> Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">mike@iptrading.com</a>><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</b> Hytham El-Nakhal <<a href="mailto:hytham@tra.gov.eg" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">hytham@tra.gov.eg</a>>; <a href="mailto:pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net</a>; rpd List <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank" style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] PDWG Co-Chairs communication regarding observed behavioron AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02<u style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></u><u style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I did not say you commented on as-set issue..<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The co-chair initiated this thread per subjectline which is related to hierarchical names for new as-set draft policy AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The co-chair openning statement read... in quote<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"The mailing list has recently been flooded with multiple emails stating either the same duplicate objections or consistent pushbacks to every post, some of them with subject line containing ‘Digest’."<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The above is an outcome of folks outsourcing their thinking to AI and endlessly trolling using multiple emails and sockpuppets to bombard the rpd list.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You are talking about usage of AI and seeing no issue with it.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I am telling you I have had enough of it.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>./noah</b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 23 Jul 2026, 8:29<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>pm Mike Burns, <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi Noah,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I have made no comments on the AS-SET issue and tried to create a separate discussion thread for AI.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Noah <</span><a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">noah@neo.co.tz</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">> <br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2026 1:26 PM<br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b> Mike Burns <</span><a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">mike@iptrading.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</b> Hytham El-Nakhal <</span><a href="mailto:hytham@tra.gov.eg" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">hytham@tra.gov.eg</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; </span><a href="mailto:pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">; rpd List <</span><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">rpd@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] PDWG Co-Chairs communication regarding observed behavioron AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Mike<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">What AI generated arguments will possibly change the facts that as-set collision is an issue.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Havent we already documented the fact that as-set names collide across IRR databases and AI/Claude have nothing to do with this fact.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">When merging across IRR databases, havent we ack that collisions have resulted in ambiguity, empty or conflicting objects that cause tools to return incorrect or empty filter data. How is this AI/Claude problem? <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Havent other RIR implemented, hierarchical naming, some through policy others through operational implementations to bind new as-set to a specific ASN holder. Did they consult AI/Claude while at it?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Havent folks agreed that going forward we fix the issue at the moment of creation of new as-sets the only point at which an authoritative registry can prevent new instances of collision problem. I dont see how this is AI/claude concern nor how AI will be involved in technically fixing the problem even those outsourcing their thinking to claude to oppose what we want to fix wont be on the ground to fix the issue. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>./noah</b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12pt"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 23 Jul 2026, 5:50<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>pm Mike Burns, <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi Noah,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I have made it clear from the outset that list swamping or use of AI to generate duplicative, though reworded objections is grounds for moderation.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">That issue, which I was at pains to separate from the use of AI, continues to be conflated with the simple use of AI.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">That brings me to ad hominem, which is the basis of my belief and which you have failed in your reply.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Ad hominem means that the speaker of an argument is of no importance when considering the argument.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">When you ask my for my motive, you breach that.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Mike</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><div style="border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;padding:3pt 0in 0in;border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> Noah <</span><a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">noah@neo.co.tz</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">> <br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2026 10:03 AM<br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">To:</b> Mike Burns <</span><a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">mike@iptrading.com</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Cc:</b> Hytham El-Nakhal <</span><a href="mailto:hytham@tra.gov.eg" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">hytham@tra.gov.eg</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>; </span><a href="mailto:pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">; rpd List <</span><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">rpd@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">><br><b style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] PDWG Co-Chairs communication regarding observed behavioron AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, 22 Jul 2026, 8:53<span style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"> </span>pm Mike Burns, <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">It’s not like Claude will be elected to any parliament.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">But this unique governance form for a global asset provides the opportunity.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">I say, who cares if Claude is posting, or ChatGPT, or any other AI.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I care that the AFRINIC rpd list is not turned into waste land of AI powered trolls<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><blockquote style="border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;border-style:none none none solid;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11pt">Give them a seat at the table and address their arguments.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">How many valid argument have been made in the past week or you mean a single argument repeated through AI generated texts send by single persons using multiple different email address or same group saying the same thing over and over feeding the troll....<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I have not experienced this behaviour on the ARIN or RIPE lists or even APNIC for which we are both participants..<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Why are you advocating for it in the AFRNIC service region....?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>./noah</b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>RPD mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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