<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"><html><head><meta content="text/html;charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"></head><body ><div dir='auto' style='font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;'><div id="message" dir="auto"><div>Hi Ben,</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I have seen and read all of these verbose messages and I have not commented on them directly</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">While I might be, in your mind, trivializing the matter I think you are doing the opposite. If this was the first foray into this usage of llms I think it is not going to benefit the users very much. I don't find that they have changed many minds through the use of these tools and in fact have engendered a great deal of ire.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">So rather than overreact to this I think we should recognize it, acknowledge it , let the posters know that these posts are not effective and wait to see if natural incentives and disincentives change things before moving towards filtering or gatekeeping the list members.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">I have been very careful to differentiate abuse of the list from use of llms.</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Regards,</span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br></span></div><div dir="auto"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Mike</span></div><div dir="auto"><br id="br3"><br id="br3"></div></div><div id="signature" dir="auto"></div><div id="content" dir="auto"><br><div class="zmail_extra_hr" style="border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); height: 0px; margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; line-height: 0px;"></div><br> ---- On Thu, 23 Jul 2026 23:21:05 -0400 <b> ben.roberts@afrinic.net </b> wrote ----<br><br><blockquote style="border: 0px; padding: 0px; margin: 0px;"><meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div dir="auto" class="zm_2655867970915239552_parse_5880114599973973118">Mike,<div>You are trivialising the issue as a mere AI content problem. If it were just a case that some people are using AI writing tools then we would not be having this debate. </div><div><br></div><div>What we have seen is a co-ordinated Astroturfing attack of multiple anonymous gmails, bombarding the list with near identical yet largely meaningless essays all backing each other up. There may have been humans with keyboards sitting owning the gmails, but I’ve seen no evidence of “proof of life” behind the accounts. Not even basic pleasantries (e.g. “hello how are you”) or variation from the monotonic robot style. If it looks like an AI robot, quacks like an AI robot, then guess what, 9 times out of 10 it’s an AI robot. </div><div>So it’s entirely very probable that they are just AI agent robots running on Openclaw instances that are fully in control of the Gmail accounts. Or it could just be one Openclaw controlling multiple Gmails, which would explain the “hive mind” like co-ordinated and recycled paragraphs that are word for word recycled by member accounts of the collective. The “community” for policy development is supposed to be a community of humans. The known identifiable humans in the collective seem to have concencus that none of us have a problem with other known humans using AI tools to assist their writing. </div><div>It will be very easy to modify the CoC to clarify that list membership is restricted to real old fashioned humans sitting with computer gadgets that they use to post the list, while excluding autonomous computer devices running their own writing/posting programs in absence of human creativity. </div><div><br></div><div>Kind regards</div><div>Ben</div><div><br></div><div><br id="x_421575726lineBreakAtBeginningOfSignature"><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote><zspan>On 23 Jul 2026, at 22:09, Mike Burns via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:</zspan><br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote><div dir="ltr"><meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta><style>div.zm_2655867970915239552_parse_5880114599973973118 p.MsoNormal, div.zm_2655867970915239552_parse_5880114599973973118 li.MsoNormal, div.zm_2655867970915239552_parse_5880114599973973118 div.MsoNormal { margin: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Aptos, sans-serif }
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div.zm_2655867970915239552_parse_5880114599973973118 div.x_421575726WordSection1 { }</style><div class="x_421575726WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Hi Noah,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Yes you are telling everybody that you have had enough of it. Fair enough.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Yes, I am seeing no issue using AI unless it is used at cross-purposes of the list. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I don’t think the use of AI in this context has reached that level, and also I don’t think it has been very effective.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I think in the future AI will write more effective messages to the list, with or without human intervention.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I will read those effective messages and argue against, or accept the arguments made.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Regards,<br>Mike</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><div style="border: none; border-top: solid rgb(225, 225, 225) 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><zspan> Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> </zspan><br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2026 1:41 PM<br><b>To:</b><zspan> Mike Burns <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>></zspan><br><b>Cc:</b><zspan> Hytham El-Nakhal <<a href="mailto:hytham@tra.gov.eg" target="_blank">hytham@tra.gov.eg</a>>; <a href="mailto:pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net" target="_blank">pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net</a>; rpd List <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>></zspan><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] PDWG Co-Chairs communication regarding observed behavioron AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I did not say you commented on as-set issue..</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The co-chair initiated this thread per subjectline which is related to hierarchical names for new as-set draft policy AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The co-chair openning statement read... in quote</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">"The mailing list has recently been flooded with multiple emails stating either the same duplicate objections or consistent pushbacks to every post, some of them with subject line containing ‘Digest’."</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">The above is an outcome of folks outsourcing their thinking to AI and endlessly trolling using multiple emails and sockpuppets to bombard the rpd list.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">You are talking about usage of AI and seeing no issue with it.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I am telling you I have had enough of it.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><b>./noah</b></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 23 Jul 2026, 8:29<span style="font-family: "Arial", sans-serif"> </span>pm Mike Burns, <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border: none; border-left: solid rgb(204, 204, 204) 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Hi Noah,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I have made no comments on the AS-SET issue and tried to create a separate discussion thread for AI.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Regards,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Mike</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><div style="border: none; border-top: solid rgb(225, 225, 225) 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Noah <</span><a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">noah@neo.co.tz</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2026 1:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <</span><a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">mike@iptrading.com</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><br><b>Cc:</b> Hytham El-Nakhal <</span><a href="mailto:hytham@tra.gov.eg" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">hytham@tra.gov.eg</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">>; </span><a href="mailto:pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">; rpd List <</span><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">rpd@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] PDWG Co-Chairs communication regarding observed behavioron AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Hi Mike</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">What AI generated arguments will possibly change the facts that as-set collision is an issue.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Havent we already documented the fact that as-set names collide across IRR databases and AI/Claude have nothing to do with this fact.</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">When merging across IRR databases, havent we ack that collisions have resulted in ambiguity, empty or conflicting objects that cause tools to return incorrect or empty filter data. How is this AI/Claude problem? </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Havent other RIR implemented, hierarchical naming, some through policy others through operational implementations to bind new as-set to a specific ASN holder. Did they consult AI/Claude while at it?</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Havent folks agreed that going forward we fix the issue at the moment of creation of new as-sets the only point at which an authoritative registry can prevent new instances of collision problem. I dont see how this is AI/claude concern nor how AI will be involved in technically fixing the problem even those outsourcing their thinking to claude to oppose what we want to fix wont be on the ground to fix the issue. </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b>./noah</b></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal">On Thu, 23 Jul 2026, 5:50<span style="font-family: "Arial", sans-serif"> </span>pm Mike Burns, <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border: none; border-left: solid rgb(204, 204, 204) 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Hi Noah,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">I have made it clear from the outset that list swamping or use of AI to generate duplicative, though reworded objections is grounds for moderation.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">That issue, which I was at pains to separate from the use of AI, continues to be conflated with the simple use of AI.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">That brings me to ad hominem, which is the basis of my belief and which you have failed in your reply.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Ad hominem means that the speaker of an argument is of no importance when considering the argument.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">When you ask my for my motive, you breach that.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Regards,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt;">Mike</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt"> </span></p><div style="border: none; border-top: solid rgb(225, 225, 225) 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> Noah <</span><a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">noah@neo.co.tz</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 23, 2026 10:03 AM<br><b>To:</b> Mike Burns <</span><a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">mike@iptrading.com</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">><br><b>Cc:</b> Hytham El-Nakhal <</span><a href="mailto:hytham@tra.gov.eg" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">hytham@tra.gov.eg</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">>; </span><a href="mailto:pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">pdwg-chairs@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">; rpd List <</span><a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">rpd@afrinic.net</span></a><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "Calibri", sans-serif">><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [rpd] PDWG Co-Chairs communication regarding observed behavioron AFPUB-2026-ASN-001-DRAFT02</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="">On Wed, 22 Jul 2026, 8:53<span style="font-family: "Arial", sans-serif"> </span>pm Mike Burns, <<a href="mailto:mike@iptrading.com" target="_blank">mike@iptrading.com</a>> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style="border: none; border-left: solid rgb(204, 204, 204) 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt">It’s not like Claude will be elected to any parliament.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt">But this unique governance form for a global asset provides the opportunity.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt">I say, who cares if Claude is posting, or ChatGPT, or any other AI.</span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="">I care that the AFRINIC rpd list is not turned into waste land of AI powered trolls</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><blockquote style="border: none; border-left: solid rgb(204, 204, 204) 1pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 5pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><span style="font-size: 11pt">Give them a seat at the table and address their arguments.</span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="">How many valid argument have been made in the past week or you mean a single argument repeated through AI generated texts send by single persons using multiple different email address or same group saying the same thing over and over feeding the troll....</p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="">I have not experienced this behaviour on the ARIN or RIPE lists or even APNIC for which we are both participants..</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="">Why are you advocating for it in the AFRNIC service region....?</p></div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="">Cheers,</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""><b>./noah</b></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style=""> </p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>RPD mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a></span><br><span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div><br></body></html>