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<p>Hi,</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2025/10/24 17:34, Owen DeLong via
RPD wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Oct 24, 2025, at 08:06, Fernando
Frediani <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"><fhfrediani@gmail.com></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:439CA1AB-5956-4048-8831-5A244AB36F12@delong.com">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
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content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/24/2025 11:02 AM, Andrew
Alston wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAD52VQ26pj=DCPyTM+LaC_opvz3cJ1Y8gceKOuFEvn_GevZdoA@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type"
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<div dir="ltr">You also have to remember, that space
allocated prior to soft-landing has no geographic
restrictions on where it can be used - geographic
restrictions only applied to space allocated under soft
landing. </div>
</blockquote>
<p>Don't remember of this being like that. Resources
registered in AfriNic region, regardless of when they were
assigned are to be used majority within the region for
Africa Internet development and AfriNic staff already made
that clear in the past. There would be no sense to get
resources from AfriNic and be able to freely use outside the
region. </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>If they said that, they were mistaken. Reread the policy
documents and the bylaws. No such requirement exists in the
actual written rules. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It may cause you moral outrage or feel wrong to you, but it
is not against the actual written rules. Multiple attempts to
change that have failed to gain consensus over the years. The
record is pretty clear. </div>
</blockquote>
<p>That's debatable, but I do believe Fernando isn't wrong, from our
own RSA pre-dating a LOT of the current outrage and unhappiness
and debate and court proceedings etc etc .... so this may throw
further fuel, but let's state for the record what's in the
contracts around the points of contention I can think of right
now. Please keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, so the usual caveats
and disclaimers apply here. This is my own layman's reading of
the relevant sections.<br>
<br>
<b>Leasing of IP space</b>:</p>
<p>"4. Conditions of service<br>
(c) Applicant's use of the services<br>
The Applicant hereby irrevocably:<br>
(i) Commits itself to using the services solely for the purpose
for which it was requested."<br>
<br>
Since leasing of IP space was never a legitimate purpose for
requesting resources, the above in my humble opinion irrevocably
precludes leasing of resources as a legitimate use, and anyone
leasing IP space should technically return that space to AFRINIC
for re-distribution, sell it, or simply not use it, but that goes
against other points of both the RSA and the CPM which I *recall*
but don't intend to dig up right now which from memory boils down
to any resources that you're not actively using, or can't
reasonably use within a 12-month (if I recall correctly) period
must be returned to AFRINIC. This also implies that if you BUY
resources from another afrinic member you should be in a position
to reasonably use that within 12 months or you're just going to be
the one having to return it. Regardless 6(d)(iv) transfer of the
number resources is strictly prohibited ... but this has changed
with more recent policies.<br>
<br>
<b>Enforcing of new rules retrospectively</b>:</p>
<p>1 Preamble<br>
(b) AFRINIC, in the light of the foregoing, reserves itself the
right to amend this agreement partially or otherwise where it is
so mandated by its Board after giving notice to its members.<br>
<br>
Such amendment(s) where effected, will take effect after the lapse
of 30 days following its/their posting on its website and to the
members mailing list.<br>
<br>
As such, things *can* be fixed retroactively. But it also permits
abuse of power, so it's a powerful clause that could potentially
be abused by those in the Board specifically (Afrinic does NOT
have the power to unilaterally change the agreement unless
mandated by the board - is my reading of the above).<br>
</p>
<p><b>In region vs out-of-region use</b>:</p>
<p>"1 Preamble<br>
(a) AFRINIC, the African Network Information Center is the
regional Internet registry for Africa and the Indian Ocean region
and is:<br>
(i) the entity accredited by ICANN under the ICP-2 policy 2
(Resolution 05.25 of May 2005) to assign Internet number resources
<b>within</b> the region;"<br>
<br>
This is a bit more sticky ... the intent seems to be to state that
resources are for use in the region, but it is unclear if the
entity merely needs to be head quartered in the region, or has to
use the resources in the region. Lawyers will likely have a field
day (decade) based on this one.<br>
<br>
Combining this with sections from the CPM (emphasis added):<br>
<br>
"4.0 Internet Number Resources are distributed in a hierarchical
structure in which IANA (The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority)
allocates blocks of number resources <b>to AFRINIC</b>, to be
redistributed <b>throughout the African region</b>. AFRINIC
redistributes to its members and also delegates to them the
authority to make assignments and <b>sub-allocations to customers</b>
where appropriate and <b>in accordance with the policies and
procedures described in this document</b>."<br>
</p>
<p>So the resources has to be distributed throughout the *African*
region, not the world or other regions, and the customers
(members) of AFRINIC then does the same, bound by the same
policies (ie, also throughout the African region).<br>
<br>
So I do agree that there is reason for debate as to historice
in-region vs out-of-region use, but to me it's clear that the
intent was at least for "primarily used in the african region".
Will have to let the lawyers have at this one ... there is
definitely ambiguity so let's hope that the plain and obvious
*intent* wins out.<br>
<br>
On the other hand ... I think it's time to let IPv4 burn and those
not ready for v6 will eventually get disconnected from the rest of
us who are ready.<br>
<br>
Kind regards,<br>
Jaco</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:439CA1AB-5956-4048-8831-5A244AB36F12@delong.com">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAD52VQ26pj=DCPyTM+LaC_opvz3cJ1Y8gceKOuFEvn_GevZdoA@mail.gmail.com">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div> </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at
4:39 PM Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, 24 Oct
2025, 10:18 Andrew Alston, <<a
href="mailto:aa@alstonnetworks.net"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">aa@alstonnetworks.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With regards to space being used out of
region - that's extremely difficult to
actually know - because the BGP table has no
knowledge of geography :)</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I wouldn't say it is trivial but with
geolocation data plus some traveroutes and latency
check it is not extremelly dificult to find out.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">With some intended work that can be
found out and further investigate to give AfriNic
all necessary information.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Fernanso</div>
<div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Oct
24, 2025 at 4:11 PM Fernando Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Yes
there are legitimate cases, but when this
happens it may be a signal <br>
of alert. The point is to find two things: 1)
If the ASN announcing it <br>
doesn't have any relation to the resource
holder and 2) If resources are <br>
being used out of the region (the worst).<br>
For the case of parent/sub-company ideally
resources should be <br>
transferred among companies using them in
reality then.<br>
<br>
Fernando<br>
<br>
On 10/24/2025 7:45 AM, Andrew Alston wrote:<br>
> Hi All,<br>
><br>
> While I haven't got around to publishing
the code behind this - mainly <br>
> because it by necessity exposes certain
data and requires a BGP dump <br>
> from a juniper router which is hundreds
of megs big, I've attached the <br>
> output of the code I wrote.<br>
><br>
> One caveat with this data - There is
nothing inherently wrong with <br>
> space allocated to an organisation being
announced by a non-AfriNIC <br>
> ASN, there are many legitimate cases and
reasons behind this. The <br>
> same thing happens when space is
allocated to one organisation but <br>
> announced by another, and this can happen
when a sub-company of a <br>
> parent company is announcing space from
their own ASN when the space <br>
> was originally allocated to the parent.
As such, when reading this <br>
> data, it's important to understand that
the abnormalities detected do <br>
> not necessarily indicate anything
nefarious - and this data should not <br>
> be seen as accusations of
malfeasance against anyone.<br>
><br>
> Let's see if the lists let this post
through!<br>
><br>
> Thanks<br>
><br>
> Andrew<br>
><br>
><br>
>
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