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--></style></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;line-break:after-white-space'><div class=WordSection1><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Below in-line<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=ES-TRAD style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 16/11/21 16:29, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On Nov 16, 2021, at 01:48 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>While I agree with you that it is difficult to reach consensus on both policies, we tried several times to get authors from both sides to get together and never happened, and if there is no “copy” of one policy into the other (as this is the case), I think competition is fine.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>What it will be bad is to copy a policy from one set of authors into another one, and change a few things, because that’s a way to avoid consensus. I don’t think it has been the case here.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>What will also be bad is if we get rough consensus on two policies that modify the same sections of the CPM in conflicting ways.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Jordi] Actually not. If proposal A get consensus declared before proposal B, even if you include in the CPM A, then B, what remains is the text of B. That will be according to the PDP. Never mind if A and B declaration of consensus happens with 2 years of difference or just 2 hours. So, in the worst case, if in a single meeting there are 2 competing and conflicting proposals, the chairs have the attribution to decide which one goes last, so that one will prevail. Exactly the same way in the IETF we have documents that update the previous ones!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>In general, I favor competing policy proposals, but in such a case where they are being considered by the community contemporaneously, one or both should have detailed descriptions of the expected precedence in the case that both proposals are adopted. Absent such a specification coming from consensus among the authors, I believe that the co-chairs should solicit input from the community and develop an implementation statement before a call for consensus.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Now, what I think is that trying to reach consensus in this specific policy is more difficult that in the other one because it tries to approach a broader set of problems in a single policy, and in my opinion to facilitate the consensus we should break down the problem in smaller ones.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Either approach is acceptable, but I agree that in general, it is easier to get consensus around smaller pieces of policy.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>OTOH, it can really turn out badly if a comprehensive change is intended in parts, but only some of the parts get adopted leading to unintended consequences not foreseen by authors who expected all of their pieces to be adopted.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>If you’re going to write piecemeal proposals, make sure that they are truly standalone and work as intended even if the other pieces of your package are not adopted.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>In my opinion we need to break the problem into 4 proposals:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>1.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>PDP Update (as in my proposal<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span><span lang=EN-US>AFPUB-2021-GEN-002-DRAFT02</span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>2.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>PDWG Chairs eligibility, selections and roles. How the PDWG continue the work in case of absence/resignation/recall of one or both chairs?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>3.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Conflict resolution.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:71.4pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>4.<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span><![endif]><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>AUP (Acceptable Usage Policy) for the mailing list, do we need it or the AFRINIC CoC is sufficient and it is accepted by the community and who and how enforces it?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>This is one perfectly valid way to break this down. There are others. We also need (out of scope for the PDP, but need to get done):<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>1.<span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Bylaws consistency check and resolution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>2.<span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Bylaw modifications to properly constrain the power of the board<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>3.<span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Bylaw modifications to properly limit board’s ability to meddle in the PDP and its appellant processes.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>4.<span class=apple-tab-span> </span>RSA consistency check and resolution<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Note that I also agree with all your points here. There are several missconceptions which in fact are aganins the definition of rought consensus in which all the PDPs are based.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Not all PDPs are based on rough consensus any more. (see above)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Last but not least, 3.4.2 of the *<b>actual</b>* PDP indicates “No change can be made to a draft policy within one week of the meeting”, and this version was submitted, according to the authors email outside of that time frame, so it shall not be considered for this PPM. I’ve no problem on accepting that, however, then, how we can say next time other authors, of another proposal that they missed the deadline? Is that acceptable?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>If this version missed the deadline, then it missed the deadline. We really need to stop arbitrarily making process exceptions without considering the unintended consequences which may well extend beyond just the bad precedent you describe above. It may effectively disenfranchise participants in the process because they did not expect the late arriving policy to be considered, so they don’t attend the relevant session or they are otherwise unprepared to fully engage on it due to the short timeline.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Jordi] There may be an English misinterpretation of the PDP here. But my reading is that “No change can be made to a draft policy within one week of the meeting”, if the meeting starts on 17<sup>th</sup>, means that you can’t send a proposal after 9<sup>th</sup> noon, because the week before the meeting is 10<sup>th</sup> to 16<sup>th</sup>. How do you see that as English native speaker?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jordi</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 16/11/21 8:47, "Paul Hjul" <<a href="mailto:hjul.paul@gmail.com">hjul.paul@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Hello PDWG Members, <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Please note that this new version of the policy Proposal - PDP Working Group and Guidelines from authors Noah Maina and Alain Aina has been given the ID <span class=gmail-il>AFPUB</span>-<span class=gmail-il>2020</span>-<span class=gmail-il>GEN</span>-<span class=gmail-il>002</span>-<span class=gmail-il>DRAFT04</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The proposal contents are published at: <a href="https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2020-gen-002-d4" target="_blank">https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/<span class=gmail-il>2020</span>-<span class=gmail-il>gen</span>-<span class=gmail-il>002</span>-d4</a> <<a href="https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2020-gen-002-d4" target="_blank">https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals/<span class=gmail-il>2020</span>-<span class=gmail-il>gen</span>-<span class=gmail-il>002</span>-d4</a>> <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Kind Regards, <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>PDWG Co-Chairs.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></blockquote><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>This policy proposal is in conflict with the proposal AFPUB-2021-GEN-002-DRAFT02 and really represents a competing proposal on several substantive issues. I do not see how rough consensus (yet alone consensus) can be reached on both policies. As the latter proposal is considerably closer to an alignment with the values which should underpin Afrinic; it has my reservation carrying support.<br><br>The proposition that the CEO serves as the arbiter of acceptable speech is untenable, moreover the entire approach of the section is badly framed and crafted:<br>It speaks of an "appeal" to the CEO and then speaks of "complainers". This is badly ambiguous and unworkable. If a person is alleged to violate the code of conduct somebody complains (who logically can be referred to as the complainer, but should be called a complainant) to the co-chairs. The co-chairs then consider the complaint and make a decision (which decision is taken without affording audi to the person who against whom the complaint is made) which if adverse against a person results in posting rights suspension. That person (who could be called an appellant) can appeal to the CEO but is he now complaining (a complainer) about the co-chairs. What of the situation where the co-chairs decline to act? Do the original complainers have a right to go to the CEO?<br>This problem is all the more severe if the CEO is engaged in discussions on the group and is the complainant alleging conduct violations. It is worth noting that this exact scenario is alive at present.<br><br><br>The proposition that "Actions taken by the board of directors regarding the appointment process is final and binding" is wholly untenable and represents an outright demise of both the consensus approach and the notion that the Community (rather than the organization implementing the policies) is responsible for policy development. (This is one major point of incompatibility with AFPUB-2021-GEN-002-DRAFT02). Moreover I don't see how it can possibly survive legal and various states competition authority scrutiny. I anticipate that the courts will interpret that as internally final and therefore the point at which litigation against the organization is required but I suspect that the intent is to exclude external appeal. The former will be a risk to the organization and the latter is wholly unacceptable and is a continuation of the bullshit (<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit</a>) of Afrinic pretending that it is a statutorily empowered regulator or governing organization.<br><br><br>The proposition that the co-chairs ensure of discussions "that they converge to consensus agreement" is fatally misconceived. The attainment of rough consensus entails fairness of process and being heard such that a workable policy is arrived at which is acceptable if not preferable. Good faith discussion entails understanding the different views and approaches. Often it is only through discussion with a view to understanding that any hope of convergence or consensus can be reached. The introduction of some manner of predetermined consensus reaching is a massive opening to abuse and discord.<br>Paradoxically (and perhaps reflecting the logical disconnects in the proposal) I am at a loss as to the possible benefit of "For each policy proposal, one co-chair must be assigned as the primary contact" and fear that the intended effect is that two factions can operate within the WG with two competing policies each assigned to one co-chair with each "guiding" the different policies. Perhaps what the policy intends is that each faction will conceive of a proposal which is piloted through to a point at which they must converge at which point the faction which has the support of the board is able to have "workshopped" consensus. If this is the intention the policy will only make such an approach possible with there being much ugliness in the group.<br><br>I therefore am of the view that the sooner this proposal is withdrawn the sooner it will be practicable to earnestly rebuild the PDWG properly. There are other issues with this proposal as well which I may raise at the meeting but I thought it apposite to put forward written comments before the deadline today.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Paul Hjul<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br>**********************************************<br>IPv4 is over<br>Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br></span><a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>http://www.theipv6company.com</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br>The IPv6 Company<br><br>This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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IPv4 is over<br>
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http://www.theipv6company.com<br>
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This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.<br>
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