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--></style></head><body lang=ES link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap:break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;line-break:after-white-space'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Responses below, in-line.<o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Saludos,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Jordi<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>@jordipalet<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 12/11/21 19:48, "Owen DeLong" <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>On Nov 12, 2021, at 00:42 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Hi Owen, all,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>As you know, most of us aren’t native English speakers, so it is easy that we can make mistakes. However, those mistakes can be corrected, as we did in previous proposals, at the PPM, or even during the last-call if they reach consensus. So, if we all agree on your suggestions regarding 5.7, I will’ve no problem on that. Could the staff, before the PPM, tell us if this alternative wording still has for them the same interpretation, and consequently it is a clear editorial change?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regarding 5.7.1, in our previous discussion (<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013837.html">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013837.html</a>), we already agreed that this paragraph is not needed, but it was requested by the staff to make it clearer. In other RIRs there is nothing like that text. It doesn’t harm to have it. Today, M&A is an internal procedure. If tomorrow the community decides that it must be a policy, then we just need to include in that policy proposal the removal of that text. In fact, once we resolve the transfers, I plan to resubmit my proposal for M&A.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I am not saying it is not needed. I am saying that it either needs to reference an existing M&A policy or we need to cover M&A here. If there is no existing M&A policy than excluding M&A here is ridiculous. If there is an existing M&A policy, include its section number here as a reference and be done.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>One of those two things should happen.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Otherwise, we’ve literally got no policy to cover the most common form of resource transfer, while specifically excluding it from the one transfer policy we will have. Currently it is not excluded from the existing transfer policy, so this is a serious and dangerous change if we don’t address it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Jordi] There is an internal procedure published for M&A. I don’t agree it must be a procedure, but a policy, however, trying to fix it at the same time as the transfers proved (because a previous proposal that I submitted for that) that will make more difficult any chance for consensus. So, we shall be coherent and split both problems. In fact, in other RIRs is also different policies and if I recall correctly only in RIPE it is an internal procedure not a policy.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regarding 5.7.2.2/3, the 16 months are considered using an existing timing in the CPM section 5.4.5, times 2. I think it is a very simple way to agree on that, otherwise, each community member will have a different view and we will not be able to reach consensus. I don’t think it is so important and if the community believes that it need to be amended, we could make it after the proposal reach consensus, considering that the implementation of such policy will typically take 1 year and the timing is not critical for the implementation time (is just a parameter in the scripts).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I do not favor coming to consensus on a policy with a silly clock with a plan to amend the clock later. I think we should come to consensus on a complete policy including timing. I propose 24 months, but I would find 12 or 18 months acceptable.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I think 8 months is a rather silly timeline as well.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Jordi] Well, I’m not sure if it is right calling “silly” a timing in a policy that has been adopted by the community. And then it makes sense to use that timing for other timers that are related. At the end I think this is a matter of personal preference, not a subject for objecting a policy, because then, every community member can decide that for them 7 weeks or 7 months, instead of 8 weeks/months, makes more sense. This is a totally subjective discussion and we should try to keep them outside of policy discussion if we want to move on.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regarding 5.7.4, most of the text on this section is more an example that anything else, because the other 4 RIRs already have a cooperation system to exchange this information and make it public, so as said in the policy text “This doesn’t exclude the publication of the same or other information as a result of the operating agreement among the RIRs.”.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I understand, but I believe the data I proposed SHOULD become part of the mandatory minimum information. Is there some objection to adding the data I requested specifically?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>If not, we should simply add those items to the list and move on. If so, what is the rationale for excluding it from the list?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Jordi] I’m fine with that, I believe that as they don’t change the intent, they could also be considered editorial changes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regarding 5.7.5, the text has been amended as we discussed in the previous round and with the inputs from the staff. I’m not going to discuss with you “personal views” (which I also have my owns and not necessarily in favor of recent Board actions) vs this proposal text. If we believe that things are broken, we shall address that in other places, not in every single proposal, because *<b>anything</b>* in the PCM can be used as weapon against the members and community, if the staff/board decides so, and this is consequently not a problem for any specific policy text, it is a wider organization issue. If you remove 5.7.5, following the RSA, the staff still can do *<b>exactly the same</b>* and even more, and can *<b>deny</b>* the transfers and reclaim the resources because the justification of the need is no longer there. As such, this will be even more against the members and the community than keeping 5.7.5.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>This text provides broad discretion to personnel who have indicated a tendency to abuse that discretion and act in a manner which is not equitable across the entire membership.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>That’s provable fact, not personal view.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Given that, I strongly object to the inclusion of this provision. Of course staff wants it. It gives them broad power to weaponize AFRINIC and hold hostage transfers that they don’t want to approve. It creates a perfect opportunity for them to engage in shakedowns or solicit bribes to approve transfers. This provision is a recipe for enhanced corruption and therefore I strongly object to its inclusion as written or in any form which continues to include any such discretion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Jordi] See my previous email on this, so we avoid repeating ourselves …<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regarding 5.7.6, I agree with you, but the staff is suggesting that it adds clarity as I just explained in my previous email. I don’t think it harms so I will say let’s keep it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I will reiterate… Staff here is paid by the membership to serve the membership and the community, not the other way around. We should not be contorting policy in an effort to appease staff. It does not add clarity, it adds FUD. It is harmful and should be stricken.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I object to the policy so long as it contains this provision.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>[Jordi] Same, see previous email.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>Jordi</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>@jordipalet</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>El 10/11/21 18:51, "Owen DeLong via RPD" <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> escribió:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>This version has the following problems;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Proposal:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>5.7 <span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Roboto;color:#FF6600'>This policy applies to any entity with a justified need for IPv4 resources (recipients) and entities with IPv4 resources which no longer need (sources).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:3.75pt;margin-left:70.8pt;box-sizing: border-box;caret-color: rgb(117, 117, 117)'><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Roboto;color:#FF6600'>The resources to be transferred must be from an existing Resource Holder (including Legacy Resource Holders) in the AFRINIC service region/other RIRs.</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Correction:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>5.7 This policy applies to any entity with a justified need for IPv4 resources (recipient) and any entity with IPv4 resources which are no longer needed (source).<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>The resources to be transferred must be from an existing Resource Holder (including Legacy Resource Holders). At least one of the parties (source or recipient) must be an AFRINIC resource holder or be eligible to become an AFRINIC resource holder as a result of the transfer (per 5.7.3.1, et. al.).<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Reasoning:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>First, the syntax of the first sentence was awkward and had an invalid mix of singular and plural. Grammatical and syntax correction, but original meaning preserved.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Second, the sentence was awkwardly worded and did not achieve what I believe to be the author’s true intent.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Proposal 5.7.1 …M&A not covered…<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Correction:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>instead of simply stating that M&A transactions are not covered by the policy, reference should be made to the policy under which they are covered. If there is no such policy, then the exception should be removed from this policy.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Reasoning:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>M&A transactions occur, both inter and intra-RIR. That is simply the current reality. Prohibiting them from being recognized puts policy out of step with reality and guarantees inaccurate registration information.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Proposal 5.7.2.2 …Not less than 16 months…<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>16 months seems a very arbitrary period of time (1 1/3 years). Suggest that this should be modified to 12, 18, or 24 months. Suggest a similar change to 5.7.2.3 as well.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Personally, I would favor 24 months, with 18 as my second choice.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Proposal 5.7.4: Suggest adding the following to the required information list:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Source ORG-ID<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span class=apple-tab-span> </span><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Recipient ORG-ID<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>I continue to object to 5.7.5. In the situation with an ethical RIR, I agree this provision would not be a problem. However, with the current crew of shake down artists in control of the AFRINIC management and board where we have seen made up interpretations of the bylaws and the CPM used in an effort to extort money from members, this provision is perfectly positioned to be weaponized in order to deny legitimate resource holders the ability to protect their rights.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Proposal Section 5.7.6 is non-operative and has no effect. Therefore, it should be stricken IMHO.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>Owen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div style='margin-left:35.4pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'>_______________________________________________ RPD mailing list<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:35.4pt'><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br>**********************************************<br>IPv4 is over<br>Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br></span><a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/"><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'>http://www.theipv6company.com</span></a><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br>The IPv6 Company<br><br>This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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