<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 4, 2021, at 18:15 , Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class=""><p class="">Owen, you simplify too much things to direct them to something
that you may think is simple and easy, but it is not.</p></div></div></blockquote>I’m not saying it’s simple or easy. I’m saying that it’s nuanced and you are missing the nuances.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">You can deny but in practice what Jordi and other of us say is
correct that resources is owned by community and that is in
practice simply because it is not enough that something specific
is written in certain in a bylaw document. If sudden one RIR
believes it can do whatever it likes with Internet Resources and
all the other RIRs - the community - think otherwise, then that
RIR will NOT get what those members wish, regardless what the
bylaws say. It will not work. They will lose.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div>EVERY RIR says that the resources are not property, are not owned by anyone.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Indeed, claiming title to integers is an absurd concept in that one of the basic concepts of property is a right to exclusive use. No RIR can deny me the use of 5 or any other integer, and no RIR can grant anyone any sort of exclusive right to any particular integer. It’s just not possible.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>What the RIRs can do is manage a registration database that uniquely maps entities to numbers and guarantees that those registrations do not map the same number to multiple entities in the database.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Now as to ownership of the database, that’s more of a gray area, certainly. Are you claiming that this “community” somehow owns the database and therefore the bylaws governing AFRINIC’s conduct as a company cannot govern how it maintains and modifies the database? That’s an interesting claim and it would certainly have some unknown ramifications if you’re able to make such a claim stick. Novel theory in any case.</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">Therefore community collectively has the means (and the power) to
stop any unilateral act that is not favorable to the whole
community and so why there is a framework and a proper bottom-up
process each RIR MUST be bound to including adapting its own
bylaws to THAT reality and those principles and not the other way
round. And if they refuse to do those words in the bylaws will
simply not be enough to secure what they want in practice.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div>By what mechanism and process do you imagine that these means and this power come to be?</div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">Stop getting into less important details and focus on the
practice and reality of how the things really work.</p></div></div></blockquote>The details are important and they are how things really work. I’ve pointed to legal citations and citations of the bylaws to support my views.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>You’ve provided only your own conjecture and opinions on the matter which seem to be less and less connected to reality with each passing message.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I am truly looking forward to whether you can get out of this corner you have now painted yourself into with any reality-based factual evidence to back your position.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/08/2021 20:34, Owen DeLong via
RPD wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:6FC66D21-7807-4DCF-BA7A-DFB1FCB2D98A@delong.com" class="">
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<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Aug 4, 2021, at 01:44 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ
via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size:
12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">Hi Owen,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size:
12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size:
12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">If I create a company to
handle you own personal assets, without having been
empowered by you to do so, that invalidates the
articles in the bylaws of my company.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Well, it doesn’t invalidate them, but the company would never
gain access to my personal assets in the first place. As such,
this example does not apply to the current situation with the
RIRs.</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size:
12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">Will you agree on that?</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
No. See above. The bylaws of the company remain valid, but the
company lacks the ability or authority to obtain control of the
assets in question.</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size:
12pt;" class=""> </span></div>
<div class="">
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<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size:
12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">The Internet Resources are
from the community, not AFRINIC, not any RIR (maybe it
is slightly different in the case of ARIN, we know, at
least for the IPv4 ones). It is true that it is a
complex legal battle to dispute that. That’s why it is
easier that the Board, even if they need to consult with
the membership, recognize the mistake and resolve that.
One way is ratifying the policy that they decided not
to.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is where our convenient use of imprecise (and even
inaccurate) terms gets us into trouble. There are seriously
nuanced issues here that require some clarification about the
terminology we commonly use and the incorrect thought
processes it creates.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So please bear with me as I’m sure some of the things I say
below will evoke negative reactions, but please do read
through to understand the full context of my explanations. Try
to keep an open mind and truly understand the deeper more
nuanced way in which things are actually structured. It’s
truly a beautiful thing because it simultaneously holds
everyone accountable while avoiding any sort of super-powerful
central authority. Most impressively, it creates very very few
perverse incentives (at least up to the point where you start
attaching dollar values to registrations).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
There is no such thing as “Internet Resources”. There are
integers. Nobody owns integers. Nobody controls integers.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There is such a thing as registrations of numbers for
uniqueness among cooperating entities for a particular purpose.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">AFRINIC is one of the 6 cooperating entities that currently
operate collectively as the central registration authority for a
fiction we collectively refer to as “The Internet”.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In reality, there is no organization or actual structure of
“The Internet”, there is only a collection of independently
operated networks who happen to use a common protocol and happen
to agree on ways to exchange traffic and happen to agree on a
common registration system in the form of the RIRs and ICANN.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is useful and convenient, but it carries no force of law
and does not have any ability to grant rights or force
behaviors. It can, of course, make its issuance or persistence
of registrations in its database(s) contingent on compliance
with a set of policies or rules set by a process determined by
the organizations in question.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The internet resources are NOT from the community, they are
integers pulled from thin air. The registrations of those
resources, on the other hand, are managed in a hierarchical
manner and come originally from IANA (a function currently
performed by ICANN) to the RIRs and then to LIRs, NIRs, and End
Users. Those registrations are entirely under the control of the
companies that operate the registries and are entirely subject
to the bylaws thereof.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you do not like this, of course you are absolutely free to
incorporate your own form of regional internet registry that
gets its addresses from whatever source you desire and manages
its registration database according to whatever policies your
policy process you wish.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Crafting the bylaws for such an organization will be very
tricky business, but have at it if this is how you wish to spend
your time. Another difficulty will be convincing anyone who
controls a meaningful router to consider the registrations in
your new registry valid, but I leave such things as an exercise
for the reader.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As a matter of fiduciary responsibility, the board simply
cannot ratify the policy as written because it is, quite simply,
not rectifying a mistake, but overriding the general structure
of corporate governance and moving control of a membership
corporation into the hands of an undefined group of people who
may or may not actually have any stake in the company. To the
best of my knowledge, this is not permitted under the laws of
any country that I am aware.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Perhaps such a thing is possible in Amsterdam, I don’t know.
It is not possible as near as I can tell from my reading of the
Companies Act of Mauritius. I’m pretty sure it’s not possible in
the US.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Owen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
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