<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 5, 2021, at 13:29 , Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class=""><p class="">You may use the integers you wish, but if you don't have the
collaboration of most of others (the community) you will not get
what you want. Therefore the practical result will be null for
you.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Correct… This is entirely by convention and agreement among cooperating parties and I’m glad to see you finally agreeing with me about this.</div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">If any of other RIRs have in their database that specific block
is to be used by another organization most organizations will take
that into consideration and will filter you, therefore your
decision (even if backed by a unilateral decision of the Board of
Staff of any RIR) to use those integers will simply not work. That
is the mechanism.</p></div></div></blockquote>Maybe yes, maybe no. It all depends on the decisions of people who actually run routers what they want to do in such a circumstance.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">Don't need to go into much details of what a local court would
rule, because it is written there and they may have the power,
etc, etc as in practice it doesn't work just having it in the
bylaws as community can overwrite any Board of Staff decision in
practice. The practice is: play by the rules all others are
playing (bottom-up process worldwide, ICP-2 (not just at the
creation of the RIR), etc) and everything will work fine for all.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div>The community as a whole, if you define it as all those who control internet routers acting in concert and cooperation, sure. However, if you just mean the</div><div>AFRINIC community that posts on the <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" class="">rpd@afrinic.net</a> mailing list, well, that’s a much less effective definition of community in this context.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Whether you like it or not, it remains a fact that ICP-2 governs only the accreditation of a new RIR specifically by ICANN, and only so long as ICANN</div><div>continues to perform the IANA function.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In reality, 5 men can decide to fire ICANN from its role by a single unanimous action and ICP-2 will no longer even govern the creation of new RIRs.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>For now, it continues to govern that process because for now it continues to have the consent of those 5 men, but I suspect it is unlikely that they</div><div>will agree to creating a new RIR any time soon, so it is essentially moot at this point, anyway.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">Regards<br class="">
Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Em 05/08/2021 17:17, Owen DeLong
escreveu:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:A497267E-6B07-4890-AF6B-793572AD971F@delong.com" class="">
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<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Aug 4, 2021, at 18:15 , Fernando Frediani
<<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div class=""><p class="">Owen, you simplify too much things to direct
them to something that you may think is simple and easy,
but it is not.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
I’m not saying it’s simple or easy. I’m saying that it’s nuanced
and you are missing the nuances.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="">You can deny but in practice what Jordi and
other of us say is correct that resources is owned by
community and that is in practice simply because it is
not enough that something specific is written in certain
in a bylaw document. If sudden one RIR believes it can
do whatever it likes with Internet Resources and all the
other RIRs - the community - think otherwise, then that
RIR will NOT get what those members wish, regardless
what the bylaws say. It will not work. They will lose.<br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">EVERY RIR says that the resources are not property, are not
owned by anyone.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Indeed, claiming title to integers is an absurd concept in
that one of the basic concepts of property is a right to
exclusive use. No RIR can deny me the use of 5 or any other
integer, and no RIR can grant anyone any sort of exclusive
right to any particular integer. It’s just not possible.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">What the RIRs can do is manage a registration database that
uniquely maps entities to numbers and guarantees that those
registrations do not map the same number to multiple entities
in the database.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now as to ownership of the database, that’s more of a gray
area, certainly. Are you claiming that this “community”
somehow owns the database and therefore the bylaws governing
AFRINIC’s conduct as a company cannot govern how it maintains
and modifies the database? That’s an interesting claim and it
would certainly have some unknown ramifications if you’re able
to make such a claim stick. Novel theory in any case.</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">Therefore community collectively has the means
(and the power) to stop any unilateral act that is not
favorable to the whole community and so why there is a
framework and a proper bottom-up process each RIR MUST
be bound to including adapting its own bylaws to THAT
reality and those principles and not the other way
round. And if they refuse to do those words in the
bylaws will simply not be enough to secure what they
want in practice.<br class="">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class="">By what mechanism and process do you imagine that these
means and this power come to be?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><div class=""> <br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="">Stop getting into less important details and
focus on the practice and reality of how the things
really work.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
The details are important and they are how things really work.
I’ve pointed to legal citations and citations of the bylaws to
support my views.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">You’ve provided only your own conjecture and opinions on the
matter which seem to be less and less connected to reality with
each passing message.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I am truly looking forward to whether you can get out of this
corner you have now painted yourself into with any reality-based
factual evidence to back your position.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Owen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/08/2021 20:34, Owen
DeLong via RPD wrote:<br class="">
</div>
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<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Aug 4, 2021, at 01:44 , JORDI PALET
MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" class="" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div class="">
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<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">Hi Owen,<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">If I create a company to handle
you own personal assets, without having been
empowered by you to do so, that invalidates
the articles in the bylaws of my company.</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Well, it doesn’t invalidate them, but the company
would never gain access to my personal assets in the
first place. As such, this example does not apply to
the current situation with the RIRs.</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> </span><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">Will
you agree on that?</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
No. See above. The bylaws of the company remain valid,
but the company lacks the ability or authority to
obtain control of the assets in question.</div>
<div class=""><span style="font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""> </span></div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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none;">
<div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 12pt;" class="" lang="EN-US">The
Internet Resources are from the community, not
AFRINIC, not any RIR (maybe it is slightly
different in the case of ARIN, we know, at
least for the IPv4 ones). It is true that it
is a complex legal battle to dispute that.
That’s why it is easier that the Board, even
if they need to consult with the membership,
recognize the mistake and resolve that. One
way is ratifying the policy that they decided
not to.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is where our convenient use of
imprecise (and even inaccurate) terms gets us into
trouble. There are seriously nuanced issues here
that require some clarification about the
terminology we commonly use and the incorrect
thought processes it creates.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So please bear with me as I’m sure some
of the things I say below will evoke negative
reactions, but please do read through to understand
the full context of my explanations. Try to keep an
open mind and truly understand the deeper more
nuanced way in which things are actually structured.
It’s truly a beautiful thing because it
simultaneously holds everyone accountable while
avoiding any sort of super-powerful central
authority. Most impressively, it creates very very
few perverse incentives (at least up to the point
where you start attaching dollar values to
registrations).</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
There is no such thing as “Internet Resources”. There
are integers. Nobody owns integers. Nobody controls
integers.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There is such a thing as registrations of
numbers for uniqueness among cooperating entities for
a particular purpose.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">AFRINIC is one of the 6 cooperating
entities that currently operate collectively as the
central registration authority for a fiction we
collectively refer to as “The Internet”.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In reality, there is no organization or
actual structure of “The Internet”, there is only a
collection of independently operated networks who
happen to use a common protocol and happen to agree on
ways to exchange traffic and happen to agree on a
common registration system in the form of the RIRs and
ICANN.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">This is useful and convenient, but it
carries no force of law and does not have any ability
to grant rights or force behaviors. It can, of course,
make its issuance or persistence of registrations in
its database(s) contingent on compliance with a set of
policies or rules set by a process determined by the
organizations in question.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The internet resources are NOT from the
community, they are integers pulled from thin air. The
registrations of those resources, on the other hand,
are managed in a hierarchical manner and come
originally from IANA (a function currently performed
by ICANN) to the RIRs and then to LIRs, NIRs, and End
Users. Those registrations are entirely under the
control of the companies that operate the registries
and are entirely subject to the bylaws thereof.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If you do not like this, of course you are
absolutely free to incorporate your own form of
regional internet registry that gets its addresses
from whatever source you desire and manages its
registration database according to whatever policies
your policy process you wish.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Crafting the bylaws for such an
organization will be very tricky business, but have at
it if this is how you wish to spend your time. Another
difficulty will be convincing anyone who controls a
meaningful router to consider the registrations in
your new registry valid, but I leave such things as an
exercise for the reader.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As a matter of fiduciary responsibility,
the board simply cannot ratify the policy as written
because it is, quite simply, not rectifying a mistake,
but overriding the general structure of corporate
governance and moving control of a membership
corporation into the hands of an undefined group of
people who may or may not actually have any stake in
the company. To the best of my knowledge, this is not
permitted under the laws of any country that I am
aware.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Perhaps such a thing is possible in
Amsterdam, I don’t know. It is not possible as near as
I can tell from my reading of the Companies Act of
Mauritius. I’m pretty sure it’s not possible in the
US.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Owen</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
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