<div dir="ltr">Hello,<div><br>I find it strange that you continually accuse individuals of being something they are most likely not, and that you always resort to the argument that those who backed the inter-RIR are also advocating IP leasing.<br>People fight for what they believe is best for them and the community. Instead of continuously blaming people, let us concentrate on the issue at hand by articulating the benefits and drawbacks.</div><div><br>Mimi's remarks are really pertinent; can you give an example of a RIR that prohibits or actively opposes IP leasing?</div><div><br>Finally, based on everything we've talked so far, I'm convinced that IP leasing is capable of resolving the current issue of IPv4 exhaustion.<br><br></div><div>Cheers,<br>Wijdane<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à 02:18, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Interesting that pretty much the same people who fought a battle
      to push the controversial Inter-RIR proposal that had stuff added
      at the last time with zero discussion and had no consensus at all
      are now strongly trying to defend IP Leasing and usage out of the
      region as something "normal". What a coincidence !<br>
    </p>
    <div>On 09/07/2021 21:14, Meriem Dayday
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      <div dir="auto">How about addressing the points I mentioned
        instead of repeating the same statements over and over again? </div>
      <div dir="auto">Can you please give me a clear example of an RIR
        who bans IP leasing or is explicitly against it ?</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">I think you are just refusing to digest REAL facts
        and repeating the same song due to the lack of valid arguments.</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">Best, </div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à
            01:08, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
            a écrit :<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <p>Unbelievable what an amount of absurd we have to cope
                with here sometimes. I guess that is s result of total
                lack of understanding of how things work and have always
                worked.</p>
              <p>If a resource holder has a fair amount of *<b>unused
                  IPs</b>* these addresses MUST be returned back to
                AfriNic or transferred to another member who has
                justification for it, period. There is no middle term
                for that nor philosophical or beautiful words to make
                something different or noble.<br>
                If any organization has to lease IPs in order to work it
                is already loosing because it could be a AfriNic member
                getting these same addresses directly from AfriNic from
                not a third part at a higher price.<br>
              </p>
              <p>IP addresses are meant to build and develop internet
                ecosystem not to stay with an organization which does
                not use them and or be rented to someone else at a
                higher cost.<br>
                It is also false information that all RIRs allow IP
                leasing.</p>
              <p>Please improve your basis to discuss certain matters
                and don't spread false information.<br>
              </p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>On 08/07/2021 18:53, Mimi dy wrote:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote type="cite">
                <div dir="ltr">
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><br>
                    </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Hi Fernando,<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">First, I find it important to remind
                      you that the Internet is ONE. Moreover, the
                      African region will immensely benefit from this
                      activity, how? African ISPs/ network-holders can
                      start leasing out unused IPs, creating a whole
                      connectivity ecosystem, which primarily can help
                      them generate more income, and more prominently,
                      small scale enterprises/ tech start-ups…etc., will
                      also thrive through IP leasing instead of
                      dedicating a large portion of their capital to pay
                      RIR membership fees. Additionally, the
                      organizations that have the capacity to lease IP
                      addresses to richer countries (i.e., Australia)
                      will definitely generate an important profit that
                      will be used for the striving of internet
                      connectivity worldwide. If you do not see that as
                      an economic growth incentive and a comparative
                      advantage, I suggest you give it a second thought.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">As a matter of fact, all RIRs allow
                      IP leasing, and inter-RIR resources transfer,
                      because there is no harm in liberating
                      number resources and allowing them to be globally
                      transferrable. It is important to realize that, in
                      this day and age, the whole concept of the
                      Internet is rooted in openness, freedom and
                      sharing, if you start elaborating restrictive laws
                      and regulations, the internet will be no different
                      from a communist government, which can lead to
                      catastrophic repercussions.<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">To sum up, number resources are
                      valuable assets and should be used in a strategic
                      and intelligent way, which can be beneficial for
                      the whole Internet, while of course maintaining
                      its cooperative nature.</span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Best,<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mer. 7 juil. 2021
                    à 23:51, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
                    a écrit :<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                    <div>
                      <p>There are several points and places that make
                        it cristal clear that the idea of IP Leasing is
                        not just something absurd in terms of IP usage
                        but also against different rules in place.
                        However some keep repeating the words are not
                        written in the way "they" would like to read and
                        ignoring all that just because that might go
                        against their business.</p>
                      <p>All that Noah put below makes sense even to a
                        newbie in Internet Business so any company who
                        need smaller allocations get them from their LIR
                        which provides connectivity and that's the main
                        propose these LIRs justified the need of these
                        addresses when they were request to AfriNic.
                        These business are developing internet in Africa
                        by allocating internet resources for the
                        purposes of enabling communications which is
                        also provided by these same businesses. What
                        communications are enabled by a member who has
                        unused resources and is renting it to another
                        member - or worst - in many cases to <b>a
                          member of another RIR elsewhere</b> -
                        therefore out of the region?<br>
                      </p>
                      <p>What promotion of responsible management of
                        Internet resources is being done <b>throughout
                          the African region</b> when a member simply
                        rent these resources to someone out of the
                        region ? What development and operation of
                        Internet infrastructure is being done in Africa
                        ?</p>
                      <p>Every unused resource with hold by a member is
                        one chunk of less of resources in AfriNic's
                        pool. What is the point of exhausting that pool
                        completely and force newcomers to pay a higher
                        price for the same resources they could get
                        directly from AfriNic if these unused resources
                        simply used for renting would have been returned
                        back to AfriNic pool ? AfriNic looses newer
                        members and in turn these companies become
                        dependent from another company whose business is
                        not transporting a single bit throughout the
                        African region.</p>
                      <p>Isn't all that enough to stop those who blindly
                        keep trying to make IP Leasing and usage out of
                        the region something normal and that should be
                        accepted by AfriNic ?</p>
                      <p>Fernando<br>
                      </p>
                      <div>On 07/07/2021 13:15, Noah wrote:<br>
                      </div>
                      <blockquote type="cite">
                        <div dir="ltr">
                          <div dir="ltr"><br>
                          </div>
                          <br>
                          <div class="gmail_quote">
                            <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue,
                              Jul 6, 2021 at 1:06 AM Anthony Ubah <<a href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com" target="_blank">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>>
                              wrote:<br>
                            </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">Hi Noah,<br>
                                <br>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Hi Oga Ubah,</div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">What you describe sounds
                                nice if you are one of the
                                established ISPs who are running a top
                                to bottom network. However you can not
                                say the same for smaller enterprises,
                                too small to be an LIR, and unable to
                                run full operations profitably, giving
                                inability to afford the RIR/AFRINIC
                                fees.</div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>RIR membership fees are annual and
                              AFRINIC today has close to 200 resource
                              members across the region both large and
                              small.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>I know a good number of small
                              enterprises across the eastern coast of
                              Africa that get sub-allocations of /29,
                              /28, /26 to /24 from ISP (LIR's) providing
                              them with connectivity or hosting
                              services. This practise is common and it
                              enables such small enterprises who don't
                              need to become AFRINIC resource members to
                              enjoy internet related services through
                              ISP or hosting providers infrastructure on
                              the continent.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>I similarly know of hyperscalers who
                              provide compute and storage services
                              across their infrastructure to a wide
                              range of customers and each service comes
                              with some assignment of an integer which
                              is fundamental to provision of the IP
                              related services of (compute, storage,
                              applications) enabled by integer wrapped
                              in the service to enable IP communication.
                              Customers are not paying hyperscalers or
                              hosting providers for an integer but a
                              service.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p>AFRINIC Bylaws Section 3.4) Sections i.
                                and iii. Below talk about <b>enabling
                                  communication to assist in the
                                  development of the Internet in Africa
                                  and promote responsible management of
                                  number resources</b> and not
                                leasing/brokering.</p>
                              <p><br>
                              </p>
                              <p><i>i. to provide the service of <b>allocating
                                    and registering Internet resources
                                    for the purposes of enabling
                                    communications </b>via open system
                                  network protocols and to assist in the
                                  development and growth of the Internet
                                  in the African region;</i></p>
                              <p><i><br>
                                </i></p>
                              <p><i>iii. to promote <b>responsible
                                    management of Internet resources</b>
                                  throughout the <b>African region</b>,
                                  as well as the <b>responsible
                                    development and operation of
                                    Internet infrastructures; </b></i><span><b><i> 
                                    </i>   </b></span></p>
                            </div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr"> I feel total reliance on
                                network providers/carriers also limits
                                flexibility</div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>As far as I am concerned, we have had
                              multiple customers who wanted their own
                              managed INR beyond what we as an LIR can
                              sub-allocate as part of the connectivity
                              services they enjoy from us and we
                              encouraged and guided them to seek small
                              blocks from AFRINIC. This turned out to be
                              a much cheaper alternative than going to
                              brokers and folks who lease each IPv4 for
                              30USD without providing any Internet
                              related service to the customer beyond
                              dashing out IP's with LOA's. <br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>AFRINIC FYI, does more than just
                              allocating and managing INR. Read Bylaws
                              section 3.4 in full to understand her
                              complete objectives as an RIR for this
                              region.</div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div><br>
                                  No textbook analogy. IP leasing can
                                  allow the enterprise/organizations
                                  certain flexibility in administration.
                                  Like having a single contiguous range
                                  to numbers on all their interfaces and
                                  infrastructure either locally and
                                  across the cloud, for better
                                  administration and scaling of their
                                  network they need. This way all their
                                  IPs are unique and contiguous, and
                                  they can number their offices
                                  networks, servers, VPN etc. for easy
                                  management.</div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div>So Yes, fully (physical)provider
                                  independent. Without the physical
                                  connection to provider being involved,
                                  that provider will still be there of
                                  course, but the end user is not forced
                                  to number their LAN with that
                                  provider's IP addresses.<br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Ooooh well.... last I checked ...
                              AFRINIC is provider Independent and has
                              alway been.<br>
                            </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>So I encourage you to encourage those
                              enterprises to reach out to AFRINIC. All
                              they need is to become resource
                              members, sign an RSA and justify their
                              needs and they will be served.  AFRINIC
                              manager INR transfers within the region as
                              well. </div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div><br>
                                  On another note, AFRINIC itself would
                                  give out such IP addresses as
                                  assignments with the same
                                  justifications,  These 
                                  provider-independent address space
                                  (PI) has some limitations in the
                                  current CPM. The PIs assignments are
                                  also called "leasing", and well.</div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>There is no language in the CPM that
                              indicates that PI assignments are also
                              called <b>leasing</b>. Please point me to
                              such a language.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>However, Section 9.0 talks of temporary
                              assignments of not more than one month in
                              section 9.2 and this is often done by
                              AFRINIC to support Internet related events
                              and capacity building and education
                              activities through various Af* initiatives
                              (AIS, NOG's etc) as per the Bylaws section
                              3.4 iv.) v.) and vi.). </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>This short term assignment as far I
                              know is done for free and AFRINIC does not
                              charge the temporary requesters any fees.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div> </div>
                                <div>AFRINIC as a non profit
                                  organisation should not place itself
                                  in direct competition with its
                                  members.<br>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>Which members is AFRINIC competing with
                              exactly?  </div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div>Resource owners are restricted from
                                  leasing,</div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div> </div>
                            <div>There is no such thing as a Resource
                              owner. What there is, is Membership.</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <p><b>Bylaws section 6.1 subsection i.)
                                talks of Membership as below.</b></p>
                            <p><b> </b></p>
                            <p>6) <b>MEMBERSHIP</b></p>
                            <p>6.1) Subject to the other provisions of
                              this Article, membership shall be open to:</p>
                            <p><br>
                            </p>
                            <div><i><span>i. any Person who is
                                  geographically based within, and<font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <b>providing
                                      services in the African region</b></font>,
                                  and who is engaged in the </span><span><b><font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)">use of</font></b></span><span><font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)">,</font>
                                  or <b><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">business
                                      of providing, open system protocol
                                      network services;</font></b></span></i></div>
                            <div> </div>
                            <div>So to break down the above for you, the
                              language talks of <i><b>engaged in the<span> </span><span>use
                                    of</span></b></i><span> and not
                                leasing or brokering IPv4's but rather
                                ''<b><i>use of</i></b>" meaning using
                                the IP</span><span>  </span><span>to
                                provide internet related services in the
                                Afrinic region on some</span><span> </span><span>network
                                or system infrastructure.</span></div>
                            <div><span><br>
                              </span></div>
                            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div>while the registry can lease out
                                  space as described in the policy,
                                  placing AFRINIC in a very awkward
                                  situation.<br clear="all">
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </blockquote>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div>AFRINIC does not lease, it allocates to
                              LIR's and assigns members who seek PI
                              INR's....</div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <p>CPM Section <span style="color:rgb(32,90,115)">5.4.6.2</span>
                              reads as below and still talks of <font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)"><b>use</b></font></p>
                            <p><br>
                            </p>
                            <div><i><span>5.4.6.2</span><span> <font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><b>AFRINIC
                                      resources are for</b> </font><b><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">AFRINIC
                                      service region</font></b> <b>and</b>
                                </span><span><b><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">any </font><font style="color:rgb(255,0,0)">use</font><font style="text-decoration-line:underline;color:rgb(153,0,0)"> </font><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">outside
                                      the region should be solely in
                                      support of </font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">connectivity</font><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> back
                                      to the </font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">AFRINIC
                                      region</font></b></span></i></div>
                            <div><span><b><br>
                                </b></span></div>
                            <div><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><font face="Helvetica Neue">Cheers,</font></div>
                            <div><span>Noah</span></div>
                            <div><span><b><br>
                                </b></span></div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br>
                        <fieldset></fieldset>
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