<div dir="ltr">Hello,<div><br>I find it strange that you continually accuse individuals of being something they are most likely not, and that you always resort to the argument that those who backed the inter-RIR are also advocating IP leasing.<br>People fight for what they believe is best for them and the community. Instead of continuously blaming people, let us concentrate on the issue at hand by articulating the benefits and drawbacks.</div><div><br>Mimi's remarks are really pertinent; can you give an example of a RIR that prohibits or actively opposes IP leasing?</div><div><br>Finally, based on everything we've talked so far, I'm convinced that IP leasing is capable of resolving the current issue of IPv4 exhaustion.<br><br></div><div>Cheers,<br>Wijdane<br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à 02:18, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> a écrit :<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Interesting that pretty much the same people who fought a battle
to push the controversial Inter-RIR proposal that had stuff added
at the last time with zero discussion and had no consensus at all
are now strongly trying to defend IP Leasing and usage out of the
region as something "normal". What a coincidence !<br>
</p>
<div>On 09/07/2021 21:14, Meriem Dayday
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">How about addressing the points I mentioned
instead of repeating the same statements over and over again? </div>
<div dir="auto">Can you please give me a clear example of an RIR
who bans IP leasing or is explicitly against it ?</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I think you are just refusing to digest REAL facts
and repeating the same song due to the lack of valid arguments.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Best, </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 10 juil. 2021 à
01:08, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Unbelievable what an amount of absurd we have to cope
with here sometimes. I guess that is s result of total
lack of understanding of how things work and have always
worked.</p>
<p>If a resource holder has a fair amount of *<b>unused
IPs</b>* these addresses MUST be returned back to
AfriNic or transferred to another member who has
justification for it, period. There is no middle term
for that nor philosophical or beautiful words to make
something different or noble.<br>
If any organization has to lease IPs in order to work it
is already loosing because it could be a AfriNic member
getting these same addresses directly from AfriNic from
not a third part at a higher price.<br>
</p>
<p>IP addresses are meant to build and develop internet
ecosystem not to stay with an organization which does
not use them and or be rented to someone else at a
higher cost.<br>
It is also false information that all RIRs allow IP
leasing.</p>
<p>Please improve your basis to discuss certain matters
and don't spread false information.<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>On 08/07/2021 18:53, Mimi dy wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Hi Fernando,<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">First, I find it important to remind
you that the Internet is ONE. Moreover, the
African region will immensely benefit from this
activity, how? African ISPs/ network-holders can
start leasing out unused IPs, creating a whole
connectivity ecosystem, which primarily can help
them generate more income, and more prominently,
small scale enterprises/ tech start-ups…etc., will
also thrive through IP leasing instead of
dedicating a large portion of their capital to pay
RIR membership fees. Additionally, the
organizations that have the capacity to lease IP
addresses to richer countries (i.e., Australia)
will definitely generate an important profit that
will be used for the striving of internet
connectivity worldwide. If you do not see that as
an economic growth incentive and a comparative
advantage, I suggest you give it a second thought.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">As a matter of fact, all RIRs allow
IP leasing, and inter-RIR resources transfer,
because there is no harm in liberating
number resources and allowing them to be globally
transferrable. It is important to realize that, in
this day and age, the whole concept of the
Internet is rooted in openness, freedom and
sharing, if you start elaborating restrictive laws
and regulations, the internet will be no different
from a communist government, which can lead to
catastrophic repercussions.<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">To sum up, number resources are
valuable assets and should be used in a strategic
and intelligent way, which can be beneficial for
the whole Internet, while of course maintaining
its cooperative nature.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0cm;font-size:medium;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" lang="EN-US">Best,<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> </span></span></p>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le mer. 7 juil. 2021
à 23:51, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>
a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>There are several points and places that make
it cristal clear that the idea of IP Leasing is
not just something absurd in terms of IP usage
but also against different rules in place.
However some keep repeating the words are not
written in the way "they" would like to read and
ignoring all that just because that might go
against their business.</p>
<p>All that Noah put below makes sense even to a
newbie in Internet Business so any company who
need smaller allocations get them from their LIR
which provides connectivity and that's the main
propose these LIRs justified the need of these
addresses when they were request to AfriNic.
These business are developing internet in Africa
by allocating internet resources for the
purposes of enabling communications which is
also provided by these same businesses. What
communications are enabled by a member who has
unused resources and is renting it to another
member - or worst - in many cases to <b>a
member of another RIR elsewhere</b> -
therefore out of the region?<br>
</p>
<p>What promotion of responsible management of
Internet resources is being done <b>throughout
the African region</b> when a member simply
rent these resources to someone out of the
region ? What development and operation of
Internet infrastructure is being done in Africa
?</p>
<p>Every unused resource with hold by a member is
one chunk of less of resources in AfriNic's
pool. What is the point of exhausting that pool
completely and force newcomers to pay a higher
price for the same resources they could get
directly from AfriNic if these unused resources
simply used for renting would have been returned
back to AfriNic pool ? AfriNic looses newer
members and in turn these companies become
dependent from another company whose business is
not transporting a single bit throughout the
African region.</p>
<p>Isn't all that enough to stop those who blindly
keep trying to make IP Leasing and usage out of
the region something normal and that should be
accepted by AfriNic ?</p>
<p>Fernando<br>
</p>
<div>On 07/07/2021 13:15, Noah wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr"><br>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue,
Jul 6, 2021 at 1:06 AM Anthony Ubah <<a href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com" target="_blank">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Noah,<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Hi Oga Ubah,</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">What you describe sounds
nice if you are one of the
established ISPs who are running a top
to bottom network. However you can not
say the same for smaller enterprises,
too small to be an LIR, and unable to
run full operations profitably, giving
inability to afford the RIR/AFRINIC
fees.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>RIR membership fees are annual and
AFRINIC today has close to 200 resource
members across the region both large and
small.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I know a good number of small
enterprises across the eastern coast of
Africa that get sub-allocations of /29,
/28, /26 to /24 from ISP (LIR's) providing
them with connectivity or hosting
services. This practise is common and it
enables such small enterprises who don't
need to become AFRINIC resource members to
enjoy internet related services through
ISP or hosting providers infrastructure on
the continent.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I similarly know of hyperscalers who
provide compute and storage services
across their infrastructure to a wide
range of customers and each service comes
with some assignment of an integer which
is fundamental to provision of the IP
related services of (compute, storage,
applications) enabled by integer wrapped
in the service to enable IP communication.
Customers are not paying hyperscalers or
hosting providers for an integer but a
service.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p>AFRINIC Bylaws Section 3.4) Sections i.
and iii. Below talk about <b>enabling
communication to assist in the
development of the Internet in Africa
and promote responsible management of
number resources</b> and not
leasing/brokering.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><i>i. to provide the service of <b>allocating
and registering Internet resources
for the purposes of enabling
communications </b>via open system
network protocols and to assist in the
development and growth of the Internet
in the African region;</i></p>
<p><i><br>
</i></p>
<p><i>iii. to promote <b>responsible
management of Internet resources</b>
throughout the <b>African region</b>,
as well as the <b>responsible
development and operation of
Internet infrastructures; </b></i><span><b><i>
</i> </b></span></p>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"> I feel total reliance on
network providers/carriers also limits
flexibility</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As far as I am concerned, we have had
multiple customers who wanted their own
managed INR beyond what we as an LIR can
sub-allocate as part of the connectivity
services they enjoy from us and we
encouraged and guided them to seek small
blocks from AFRINIC. This turned out to be
a much cheaper alternative than going to
brokers and folks who lease each IPv4 for
30USD without providing any Internet
related service to the customer beyond
dashing out IP's with LOA's. <br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AFRINIC FYI, does more than just
allocating and managing INR. Read Bylaws
section 3.4 in full to understand her
complete objectives as an RIR for this
region.</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
No textbook analogy. IP leasing can
allow the enterprise/organizations
certain flexibility in administration.
Like having a single contiguous range
to numbers on all their interfaces and
infrastructure either locally and
across the cloud, for better
administration and scaling of their
network they need. This way all their
IPs are unique and contiguous, and
they can number their offices
networks, servers, VPN etc. for easy
management.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>So Yes, fully (physical)provider
independent. Without the physical
connection to provider being involved,
that provider will still be there of
course, but the end user is not forced
to number their LAN with that
provider's IP addresses.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ooooh well.... last I checked ...
AFRINIC is provider Independent and has
alway been.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So I encourage you to encourage those
enterprises to reach out to AFRINIC. All
they need is to become resource
members, sign an RSA and justify their
needs and they will be served. AFRINIC
manager INR transfers within the region as
well. </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
On another note, AFRINIC itself would
give out such IP addresses as
assignments with the same
justifications, These
provider-independent address space
(PI) has some limitations in the
current CPM. The PIs assignments are
also called "leasing", and well.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There is no language in the CPM that
indicates that PI assignments are also
called <b>leasing</b>. Please point me to
such a language.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, Section 9.0 talks of temporary
assignments of not more than one month in
section 9.2 and this is often done by
AFRINIC to support Internet related events
and capacity building and education
activities through various Af* initiatives
(AIS, NOG's etc) as per the Bylaws section
3.4 iv.) v.) and vi.). </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This short term assignment as far I
know is done for free and AFRINIC does not
charge the temporary requesters any fees.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div> </div>
<div>AFRINIC as a non profit
organisation should not place itself
in direct competition with its
members.<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Which members is AFRINIC competing with
exactly? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Resource owners are restricted from
leasing,</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div> </div>
<div>There is no such thing as a Resource
owner. What there is, is Membership.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p><b>Bylaws section 6.1 subsection i.)
talks of Membership as below.</b></p>
<p><b> </b></p>
<p>6) <b>MEMBERSHIP</b></p>
<p>6.1) Subject to the other provisions of
this Article, membership shall be open to:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div><i><span>i. any Person who is
geographically based within, and<font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> <b>providing
services in the African region</b></font>,
and who is engaged in the </span><span><b><font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)">use of</font></b></span><span><font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)">,</font>
or <b><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">business
of providing, open system protocol
network services;</font></b></span></i></div>
<div> </div>
<div>So to break down the above for you, the
language talks of <i><b>engaged in the<span> </span><span>use
of</span></b></i><span> and not
leasing or brokering IPv4's but rather
''<b><i>use of</i></b>" meaning using
the IP</span><span> </span><span>to
provide internet related services in the
Afrinic region on some</span><span> </span><span>network
or system infrastructure.</span></div>
<div><span><br>
</span></div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>while the registry can lease out
space as described in the policy,
placing AFRINIC in a very awkward
situation.<br clear="all">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AFRINIC does not lease, it allocates to
LIR's and assigns members who seek PI
INR's....</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<p>CPM Section <span style="color:rgb(32,90,115)">5.4.6.2</span>
reads as below and still talks of <font style="color:rgb(204,0,0)"><b>use</b></font></p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div><i><span>5.4.6.2</span><span> <font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"><b>AFRINIC
resources are for</b> </font><b><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">AFRINIC
service region</font></b> <b>and</b>
</span><span><b><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">any </font><font style="color:rgb(255,0,0)">use</font><font style="text-decoration-line:underline;color:rgb(153,0,0)"> </font><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)">outside
the region should be solely in
support of </font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">connectivity</font><font style="color:rgb(153,0,0)"> back
to the </font><font style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">AFRINIC
region</font></b></span></i></div>
<div><span><b><br>
</b></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Helvetica Neue">Cheers,</font></div>
<div><span>Noah</span></div>
<div><span><b><br>
</b></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre style="font-family:monospace">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" style="font-family:monospace" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" style="font-family:monospace" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
</blockquote></div>