<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 24, 2021, at 09:58 , Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" class="">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class="">
<div class=""><p class="">Hello</p><p class="">I didn't participate in the AGMM but talking about these subjects
below which are common among other RIR I have the following notes
to make:</p><p class="">- <b class="">About Question 1</b> - Normally re-justifying is just if
resources are known to be used for a different propose they have
been used previously (e.g: resources justified for an ISP that
became an End User). Also resources have rules to be used. Certain
RIRs don't allow majority of resources to be used in a different
region then the RIR one. It doesn't make sense have to re-justify
just because you assigned addresses for your customers for
different proposes (as long inside the current rules).<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>I’m curious, which RIRs would those be? I know of no such limitation in any of the 5 RIRs other than the AFRINIC Soft Landing policy which applies to a relatively small fraction of resources issued by AFRINIC.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>As to your last sentence, I agree with you, but I’ve had multiple clients approach me regarding AFRINIC demanding just that.</div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">However for instance: there have been cases in some RIRs of an
Organization that assigns part of their prefixes to another
organization where both are ASNs, have no connectivity and for
that IP Space to be announced directly from the second ASN. This
is a complete miss usage of IP space and shows that those
addresses are not needed anymore by the resource holder and
therefore they should be revoked as the resource holder doesn't
justify to keep them anymore as they are not in used for what they
have been justified.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Is it? Can you point to the AFRINIC policy where this is prohibited? Can you point to such a policy in ARIN or RIPE?</div><div><br class=""></div><div>I’ve studied this issue in some detail. You can point to such a policy in APNIC, but even there, it’s not ironclad. LACNIC has some language that could be interpreted either way.</div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">- <b class="">About Question 2</b> - One thing cannot be confused with
the other. If an organization has IP space that it doesn't use
anymore it MUST return them to the RIR regardless how much that is
worth. That IP space is not a properly of the organization, but
simply is in custody of it , so it cannot keep it for years
without usage - and if it doesn't justify anymore.<br class="">
What one may optionally do is to put it available for a transfer
and in that way the resources will end up in another organization
that truly justify and have need for them under the due process.<br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote>You’re arguing both sides of the coin here. On one hand, you say you can’t keep the address for some amount of time (you used “years”), but on the other hand you say that you can transfer it rather than return it.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>If you are allowed to transfer it instead of return it, then how long (and where is this governed in policy) are you allowed to work on arranging the transfer? Your answer of “not years” is neither sufficiently specific, nor is it present in policy anywhere.</div><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">
</p><p class="">- <b class="">About Question 3</b> - I don't think that out-of-region
usage is a matter for AGMM or Board can decide upon. It is how
the CPM says it is and discussed and decided by this forum.<br class="">
Bylaws cannot regulate resource usage. There have been other
situations where bylaws were used to mandate something it cannot
done. It is not because it is written in the bylaws that is
something valid.</p></div></div></blockquote>You still remain wrong about the extent and power of the bylaws, but that’s not really the issue here.</div><div>You are correct that the board and AGMM should not be deciding this, but they are a better choice than AFRINIC staff making it up as they go along (which is what is happening at the moment).</div><div><br class=""></div><div>In fact, the issue of out-of-region use was raised in this forum by staff multiple times and one community member even took a stab a prohibiting out-of-region use with a policy proposal. It returned for several meetings over the course of 2-3 years IIRC before finally dropping into the annals of history as yet another bad idea that failed to gain consensus.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">However point 5.4.6.2 of CPM says: "<i class="">AFRINIC resources are for
AFRINIC service region and any use outside the region should be
solely in support of connectivity back to the AFRINIC region.</i><strong class="">"</strong>
- therefore that seems very clear to me.</p></div></div></blockquote>Sure, but 5.4.6.2 is part of the soft landing policy and specifically refers only to resources that are issued after the beginning of soft landing phase 2. The question includes space that was issued prior to the beginning of soft landing phase 2, so this cannot be a complete answer.<br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">- No comments to make about Question 4.</p></div></div></blockquote>Noted with appreciation.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><p class="">Regards<br class="">
Fernando<br class="">
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24/06/2021 04:32, Paul Wollner
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:17a3cef3a06.c4eb9e01197209.7059284685887196559@africaoncloud.net" class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 10pt;" class="">
<div class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Dear Chairperson,</span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Reference is
made to the AGMM chaired by
you on the 4 June 2021.</span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">I wish to
put on record that at the AGMM we
were not given a reasonable opportunity to discuss and
comment on the
management of AFRINIC and in particular to the following
issues:-</span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
1</span></b><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">AFRINIC
claims that any change in the IP
usage will require re-justifying the usage. Would it mean
that, hypothetically,
if I have a web customer on my server and they leave to be
replaced with a VPN
customer, will I need to seek AFRINIC’s approval first?</span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><u class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
1 was not discussed or
commented upon</span></u><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
2</span></b><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">The rest of
the world enjoys a 30 USD/IP at
a free open market. With AFRINIC having a transfer policy in
place, will
AFRINIC still demand any unused IP be returned to them for
free?</span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><u class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
2 was not discussed or
commented upon</span></u><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
3</span></b><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Out-of-region
use was extensively discussed
within the last decade, and it was a consensus that pre-soft
landing space is
allowed for out-of-region use. Yet, I heard that AFRINIC
seems to be using
bylaw 6.1 to manage other people’s resource usage. This is
not part of AFRINIC
policy and has, with good reason, never been approved by the
community. Can
AFRINIC clarify its understanding of out-of-region usage to
the member base?</span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><u class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
3 was not discussed or
commented upon</span></u><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
4</span></b><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Madhvi was
in charge of the registration
department when the IP heist happened – this, at the very
least, shows her
incompetence, so why is she getting promoted instead of
rightfully dismissed?</span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><u class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Question
4 was not discussed or
commented upon</span></u><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><br class="">
</div><div style="margin: 0px;" class=""><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Paul
Wollner</span></b><br class="">
</div>
<div data-zbluepencil-ignore="true" id="" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br class="">RPD mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" class="">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>