Hello all, <div><br></div><div>From my own point of view I do think this should be available in a consented form and optional form. I am speaking from an economic risk point of view .</div><div><br></div><div>To adopt RPKI, i think ISPs may need to deploy and maintain servers running as RPs, which means that ISPs have to take on more costs, including more responsibilities, more time and more money. Besides, the route origin validation in RPKI has been designed to be deployed on current BGP border routers. In order to realize the validation, the border routers need to be upgraded to accommodate some additions, such as the “Route Validation Database” , which means that with the deployment of RPKI, there are additional costs to upgrade the network equipments.<div><br></div><div>Kindly correct me if I am wrong jordi. Cheers</div><br>On Saturday, January 30, 2021, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net">rpd@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="ES" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Hi Elvis,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">I’m not sure to understand if you support or not this proposal, the emails is a bit confusing to me.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">*<b>if</b>* what the community want is to make sure that AFRINIC doesn’t provide any routing information, so the community can decide if they want to use it or not, then AFRINIC should:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">1) STOP providing RPKI.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">2) STOP providing by means whois and any other DBs, information about who are the legitimate resource holders for each block of addresses.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt">Doing so, means we don’t need a register anymore, or the functions of the register should be limited to “pay for the resource fee and you get it”.<u></u><u></u></span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">RPKI and AS0 are just one tool, one facility, to have that information in a trusted way, with allows automation for *<b>those</b>* that want to use it.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">IT DOESN’T enforces anyone to use that information, and still allows to use RPKI, without using AS0.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Jordi<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">@jordipalet<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black"><u></u> <u></u></span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">El 31/1/21 0:06, "Ibeanusi Elvis" <<a href="mailto:ibeanusielvis@gmail.com" target="_blank">ibeanusielvis@gmail.com</a>> escribió:<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">As earlier mentioned, the pivotal and fundamental principle is that AFRINIC organization should not be made to get involved in routing which I am entirely in support of and also this is not an opt-in service and should not be made to be so. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">The major purpose of the RPKI is that it serves as a security framework that verifies the association between the internet number resources and their rightful holders. Hence, this verification aspects would allow and give the provider or the holders an immense opportunity/right to protect themselves from hijacks as well as giving them the flexibility and independence of choice. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I concur that this is not a spread of misinformation but rather it is more trying to stress and lay emphasize on something that might and will cause problems if been done.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Best,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Elvis. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On Jan 31, 2021, at 5:11, Fernando Frediani <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">There is no routing data being injected. This is not BGP !<br>Please stop spreading misinformation.<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Once again can anyone that fears ASN0 for Unnalocated Space answer my questions about what is the fear of using it, what problems can it bring and all the points raised regarding the objectives of the RIR which all completely match the use of RPKI as a tool to protect its members and Internet in the region ?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Thanks<br>Fernando<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On 30/01/2021 17:05, Wijdane Goubi wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Dear community,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I agree on what was mentioned before as it goes that whoever uses RPKI can invalidate the unallocated spaces with a code and that there is no need to do a completely whole policy for it as other regions such as RIPE did not accept to apply such approach.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"> <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">As for the ideology point, I totally agree because an ideology is a body of ideas, and those who agree with the main idea of something take an ideological stand to support it therefore whatever policy that is about to be applied should take into consideration the ideological part of it which makes some facts up to discussion over again. <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Indeed, requiring the injection of data routing data into the only available routing certification program makes it a violation to the RIR’s purpose which makes it again an ideological difference.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Regards,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Wijdane<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">On Fri, Jan 29, 2021, 00:11 Anthony Ubah <<a href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com" target="_blank">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Dear Jord!<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">I think you may be misunderstanding me when I say that they are invalid. It is also quite unfortunate to hear you say that ideological differences are an “invalid objection”.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">The providers, who use RPKI, can invalidate (or AS0 as you put it) those unallocated spaces themselves with minimal code, so there is no need to have a particular policy for it. That is the exact reason why such an approach is not accepted in RIPE in the first place. I to also note that there is really no need to converting BOP (best operating practices) into unnecessary policies, as is slowly becominga norm. I am sure that you have best interests at heart, but this is not what policies are supposed to be.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Contrarywise, requiring RIRs to inject routing data into the only available routing certification program is a violation of the RIR’s purpose. The RIRs are not built for regulating routing – this is the ideological difference that I am talking about – (and something I believe you have been told regularly in the RIPE region), including the most recent appeal you have filed against the contact abuse policy in RIPE.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">If you ask anyone here to compensate for hijacking, the chances are there is an inordinately high probability that most of them misunderstand an RIR’s fundamental functions. If you want to use RPKI to prevent hijacking, you can do it today; moreover, if you wish to use RPKI with AS0 functionality, you can also do it today with just a few additional lines of code.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Therefore, your argument that the provider can’t protect themselves from hijacking because they lack AS0 functionality in an RIR-provided space is very misleading. On the other hand, the current status quo allows the provider to choose whether or not they want such functionality instead of forcing it on them. The AS0 for unallocated space is already an optional function that anyone can enable independently, and enabling AS0 is a BOF rather than a policy issue.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Kind regards, <u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt">Anthony<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><u></u> <u></u></p></blockquote><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:35.4pt"><br><br>------------------------------<br><br>Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2021 10:06:13 +0100<br>From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>To: <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [rpd] REPORT ON Appeal against the non-consensus<br> determination on proposal AFPUB-2019-GEN-006-DRAFT02 (RPKI ROAs for<br> Unallocated and Unassigned AFRINIC Address Space ? Draft 2).<br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:9149D981-DD95-473D-9D59-DBB705FB712B@consulintel.es" target="_blank">9149D981-DD95-473D-9D59-<wbr>DBB705FB712B@consulintel.es</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Hi Anthony,<br><br><br><br>I don?t recall now if you were in favor or against the proposal, anyway, my understanding from your email is that you?re trying to explain why the people that don?t have the right expertise/knowledge, is opposing to the proposal.<br><br><br><br>Your text show how wrong is the understanding of how RPKI works:<br><br><br>RPKI is an opt-in service. There is no enforcement to use RPKI. As a consequence, this proposal doesn?t change the information already available in the AFRINIC database. The database already contains information of who is the right resource-holder for every block and what blocks should not be ?in use? (unallocated, recovered, or whatever are the reasons).<br>RPKI is a set of tools. The AS0 is part of this set of tools. It is an opt-in service as well. You can use RPKI but decide not to trust/use the AS0. It is completely optional, but for those that want to have less chances of routing hijacked or invalid resources, it simplifies a lot their lives. They could build their own ?tools? reading the AFRINIC database and creating their own filters. AS0 is only simplifying that and making the source more trusted and more automated.<br>Consequently, it is untrue what you said ?they have no choice if this policy passes, so this is a valid objection and a critical one? is technically and objectively UNTRUE. There is no way to sustain that this is a valid objection.<br>With RPKI or anything related to this ?tool set? AFRINIC doesn?t get involved in routing in any *different* way than by having a database holding the information of what blocks are ?in use? or otherwise.<br><br><br>So, I must insist. The objections are invalid. Please demonstrate your words, because they are UNTRUE, technically and objectively. They will *only* become true if we *force* all the members (and the members of all the other RIRs to):<br>Use RPKI.<br>AND<br>Filter the invalids in the AS0<br><br><br>As one of my author colleagues said in the discussion among us (I modify a bit the text to make it more explicit), accepting as valid the clearly *invalid* objections means that some community members, the chairs, and the Appeal Committee, are responsible of the ?blood of the future hijacks that could have been avoided by those willing to use RPKI and the AS0?.<br><br><br><br>So, the question is, are you going to compensate for the damages for that? Because it is a violation of the PDP to declare as valid objections that are technically and clearly invalid. This is beyond to this policy proposal; it is referred to the absolute violation of the PDP when declaring consensus/non-consensus. Invalid objections must be demonstrated or non-addressed by the authors or the community, not based on personal preferences or opinions.<br><br><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Jordi<br><br>@jordipalet<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>El 27/1/21 15:48, "Anthony Ubah" <<a href="mailto:ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com" target="_blank">ubah.tonyiyke@gmail.com</a>> escribi?:<br><br><br><br>Hello Jordi,<br><br><br>This is not an opt-in service; this is created as an additional element in the RPKI service and forcefully asks the operator (who accepts the RPKI) to accept it. Taking RPKI as an opt-in service, and claiming the element you have added here, are already part of that opt-in service. When the operator accepts it then, it would be misguiding as they may not admit such additional elements. However, they have no choice if this policy passes, so this is a valid objection and a critical one.<br><br>The very fundamental principle which I believe you fail to understand (and the most crucial objection) is that we do not want to get AFRINIC involved in routing. This is an ideological difference, and this is no way to address it.<br><br>This is the very first policy to ask an RIR to proactively inject data into routing (something that was never done before), and this also goes beyond what we believe an RIR should be, simply offering a registration service, and if you think otherwise, that is entirely up to you. This would then constitute an ideological difference, and there is no acceptable way you can address it. This is also why this policy does not have consensus because forcing an ideology on others that fundamentally disagree with you is not how PDP works, regardless of how many appeals filed. Lastly, an ideological difference is the very definition of nonconsensus.<br><br><br><br>Best Regards,<br><br>UBAH ANTHONY <br><br><br><br>On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 4:49 PM <<a href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a>> wrote:<br><br>Send RPD mailing list submissions to<br> <a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a><br><br>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br> <a href="mailto:rpd-request@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-request@afrinic.net</a><br><br>You can reach the person managing the list at<br> <a href="mailto:rpd-owner@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd-owner@afrinic.net</a><br><br>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>than "Re: Contents of RPD digest..."<br><br><br>Today's Topics:<br><br> 1. Re: REPORT ON Appeal against the non-consensus determination<br> on proposal AFPUB-2019-GEN-006-DRAFT02 (RPKI ROAs for Unallocated<br> and Unassigned AFRINIC Address Space ? Draft 2).<br> (JORDI PALET MARTINEZ)<br><br><br>------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>----------<br><br>Message: 1<br>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2021 16:48:18 +0100<br>From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <<a href="mailto:jordi.palet@consulintel.es" target="_blank">jordi.palet@consulintel.es</a>><br>To: <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>Subject: Re: [rpd] REPORT ON Appeal against the non-consensus<br> determination on proposal AFPUB-2019-GEN-006-DRAFT02 (RPKI ROAs for<br> Unallocated and Unassigned AFRINIC Address Space ? Draft 2).<br>Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5192313B-D19C-4CF9-8D9A-423C0EC8C0C8@consulintel.es" target="_blank">5192313B-D19C-4CF9-8D9A-<wbr>423C0EC8C0C8@consulintel.es</a>><br>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br><br>Hi Fernando,<br><br><br><br>Let me explain how I see it.<br><br><br>The PDP is not a vote, and all the processes related to the PDP must follow the same way.<br>The co-chairs need to follow consensus also among them: If a proposal had objections and they?ve been addressed: there is no way for any of the co-chairs to disagree on that. If that happens, the co-chairs are doing a very bad job, because they need to, during the discussion, follow it, and ensure that an objection is:<br>It is clearly invalid (it is a personal viewpoint or hast not been justified, or clearly is untrue or is a lack of understanding or knowledge)<br>Has been addressed by the authors (or other community members), <br>Has not been addressed, so it is valid. And in this case, they should ensure that the authors or someone else in the community has the opportunity to address it.<br>Consequently, if a co-chair disagrees with the other one, they need to clarify among themselves or ask for further clarification to the community, authors, etc. There is no need that both co-chairs ?agree?, if one of the co-chairs can see the objection as addressed<br>The Appeal Committee must review if the co-chairs did the job correctly in 2 above. For that, doesn?t matter if (in the case of 5 AC members) 4 of them believe an objection was invalid if only one of them can see that the objection it has been addressed: exactly the same as the community and the co-chairs.<br><br><br>I fully understand that this is not so easy! But any policy proposal can be broken in as many parts as objections raised and then resolved one by one.<br><br><br><br>Let?s take an example with this proposal. Each objection is a different problem and each one should be addressed. Let?s take the first one:<br><br><br>Allowing resource holders to create AS0/ ROA will lead to an increase of even more invalid prefixes in the routing table?<br><br><br>If you look at the RFC6483, section 4 (?A ROA with a subject of AS 0 (AS 0 ROA) is an attestation by the holder of a prefix that the prefix described in the ROA, and any more specific prefix, should not be used in a routing context?) resource holders, as part of the RPKI system already can and actually do this (example IXPs), in fact they do. This has been explained several times, including my presentation at the PPM. The proposal is just adding light about actual facts regarding this aspect, not changing anything, so it can?t be a valid objection for the policy proposal.<br><br><br><br>There is no way that *any* of the co-chairs disagree with this. If they disagree, they should ask to staff or experts, it shows lack of knowledge stating that objection. Even if one co-chair agrees and the other disagree, it is still an invalid objection and the co-chair that has no knowledge must *consent* this is the meaning of consensus.<br><br><br><br>If the co-chairs still insist that this objection is valid, then the Appeal Committee does the same exercise. It is a valid objection? If only one of the AC has the knowledge to understand this, it is sufficient to make it an invalid objection. The others must *consent* (again, meaning of consensus).<br><br><br><br>Consensus is about only considering acceptable (or valid) those objections that nobody can address.<br><br><br><br>If the AC makes it based in majority, IT IS NO LONGER CONSENSUS, and basically it is basing the decision on the expertise of the different AC members, personal opinions, etc.<br><br><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Jordi<br><br>@jordipalet<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>El 26/1/21 15:03, "Fernando Frediani" <<a href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com" target="_blank">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>> escribi?:<br><br><br><br>Hello Jordi<br><br>I think that was a very good and detailed email.<br>There is however one point I differ on you: the decision taken by the AC should be based on majority of votes of the members. Obviously they must not take decisions based on personal opinions of the merit of the proposal but on the facts and if all issues have been resolved.<br>Regarding the decisions between the 2 Co-Chairs I don't think the consensus model applies there simply because there is not how to have a consensus model applied between 2 persons. Either they both agree on something or that cannot advance.<br><br>In resume: The consensus evaluation between 2 Co-Chair require both to agree there was consensus. The consensus evaluation or analysis if the Co-Chairs committed a mistake between all members of the AC is done via majority and in this last case that doesn't exclude the eventual necessity of explaining in details how every evaluation was taken for transparency proposes. The consensus model applies only the community while the proposals are being discussed and issues are being addressed.<br><br>Regards<br>Fernando<br><br>On 26/01/2021 07:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via RPD wrote:<br><br>Hi Wafa, all,<br><br><br><br>First of all, don?t take anything that I say personally, but in general I see a total failure of the Appeal Committee and lack of compliance with the PDP.<br><br><br><br>Your judgment must be on the grounds of a correct decision of the chairs.<br><br><br><br>In taking such decision the Appeal Committee must be based on facts, never on personal opinions (from the community or the chairs or the Appeal Committee itself). Being based on objective facts means checking if what the policy proposal said, what were the objections, and if those objections *are real*, not just ?illusions? or ?lack of knowledge? or ?untrue? or ?personal preferences?.<br><br><br><br>If the Appeal Committee doesn?t have the right knowledge, as I already said I believe was the reason the chairs took the wrong decision, then they should ask for help to the staff or third parties.<br><br><br><br>Any objection to a policy proposal must be duly justified and that justification not addressed by the authors or other community members.<br><br><br><br>Any policy proposal that has objections, the objections MUST BE VALID, even if the objections come from 99% of the community. This is not democracy, is not number of votes or voices, is based on non-addressed objections. It is not based on untrue objections. None of the objections to this policy proposal were valid. They are mostly based on lack of sufficient knowledge, and never lack of knowledge can be a VALID reason. Again, not only the authors, but many other expert community members have confirmed that those objections are invalid.<br><br><br><br>A policy proposal never can be based in ?I don?t like it?. You need to state ?I don?t like it because it breaks this RFC? (for example). And even in that cases authors can respond showing why the perception of ?breaking this RFC? is wrong (so addressing the objection will nullify it). Policies are not based on personal preferences, but in what is the best *technically correct choice* for the community.<br><br><br><br>Last but not least, the Appeal Committee seems to be working as a democratic body, which is wrong. ALL THE PDP is based in consensus approach. The Appeal Committee must also follow that approach, otherwise, it is breaking the ICP-2, which is the higher mandate of how the policy making process works. If 3 members of the Appeal Committee believe that the opposition was correct, they should *demonstrate with facts why* and this must be done using the responses provided by the authors and community to those objections.<br><br><br><br>If 3 members of the Appeal Committee believe that any of the objections has not been addressed, they need to *demonstrate why*, taking in consideration the community and author responses, and those must be crystal clear in the report, which is not the case.<br><br><br><br>The Appeal Committee must respond to the authors, in a consensus based approach, not a democratic one to all what the authors confirmed in the Appeal Document.<br><br><br><br>Note also that there is a paragraph in the Appeal Report that completely kills the PDP and demonstrates that the Appeal Committee HAS NOT UNDERSTOOD THEIR JOB AT ALL:<br><br><br><br>?The 3 members who observed significant opposition to the policy, however, also observed that it is the PDWG that builds consensus and decides whether issues of opposition are addressed to the satisfaction of the PDWG which is where the PDP requires that consensus is assessed by the Co-Chairs.?<br><br><br><br>The PDP states clearly that the Appeal Committee need to review the chairs decision. If the chairs have considered as VALID objections that OBJECTIVELY ARE INVALID, it is clear that the Appeal Committee must declare the lack of consensus declaration is invalid, and consequently, the proposal reached consensus.<br><br><br><br>Let?s go the details and I ask the Appeal Committee to respond to each of the objections included and refuted in the Appeal Document:<br><br><br><br>1. ?a. Allowing resource holders to create AS0/ ROA will lead to an increase of even more invalid prefixes in the routing table?<br><br>Following RFC6483, section 4 (?A ROA with a subject of AS 0 (AS 0 ROA) is an attestation by the holder of a prefix that the prefix described in the ROA, and any more specific prefix, should not be used in a routing context?) resource holders, as part of the RPKI system already can and actually do this (example IXPs), in fact they do. This has been explained several times, including my presentation at the PPM. The proposal is just adding light about actual facts regarding this aspect, not changing anything, so it can?t be a valid objection for the policy proposal.<br><br><br><br>2. ?b. Revocation time of AS0 state, and the time for new allocation doesn?t match?<br><br>This is not true, again a misunderstanding about how RPKI works. The authors and other several community experts have discussed this in the list. If you get number resources from AFRINIC, normally you don?t announce them in minutes, or hours, or even days. There is some work to do in your network, you need to do changes in systems and routers, and this takes hours, and normally you can?t ?touch? systems during the day, but only in ?maintenance windows? in the night. That means that if AFRINIC revokes an AS0 certificate, it will be done in a few minutes during the day. So even if the worldwide caches take hours to see that, there is no negative impact.<br><br><br><br>In addition to that, this it can be improved thru implementation, as I already explained also in the list. The staff could tentatively release from the AS0 the resources that they plan to allocate once a week or every couple of days, etc. For example, when they are processing a request, and they are pending on final documentation, the RSA signature for new members, or the review with the member of the justified need. Many other examples can be provided about how to do it. The proposal doesn?t go into any of those details, because the understanding is that those are too depth operational, and in fact the staff could decide an approach during the implementation, and based on experience improve it afterwards.<br><br><br><br>The conclusion is that there is no such ?matching?, neither ?unmatching?, so this can?t be taken as a valid objection for the proposal.<br><br><br><br>3. ?c. Other RIRs don?t have a similar the policy therefore, it can not be effective?<br><br>All the policies have different discussions in different RIRs at different times. This policy is already available (reached consensus and implemented) in APNIC and LACNIC (reached consensus, being implemented). There is work being done in ARIN and RIPE (the first proposal was not accepted), not yet public. So, this is untrue if you look at all the RIRs.<br><br><br><br>The effectivity of a policy is not only related to how many RIRs implement it. In this case, any RIR having this policy is actually stronger than the other RIRs not having it, in terms of routing security. It shows the commitment of that RIR about the RPKI usage with all its possibilities. It facilitates the operators in the region and outside the region to identify in a simpler and automated way, what prefixes should not be in the routing tables and consequently allow them in an opt-in basis, to discard them. So, it is in the other way around, any RIR with this policy could be said that it is more ?effective? (even if it is not probably the right wording for this topic) that the others. We should rather say that ?a RIR with this policy is offering a more secure view of their routing information?.<br><br><br><br>In addition to that, there are policies in AFRINIC which aren?t available in other RIRs. That, clearly, doesn?t make them invalid (or in other words, this is an invalid objection ? is good that all RIRs do the same, but is not always the case, or not at the same time), clearly this shows that this can?t be taken as a valid objection against this policy proposal.<br><br><br><br>4. ?d. This will become a uniform policy if it is not globally implemented, which causes additional stress?<br><br>This is almost a duplicate of the previous one. Absolutely not. We can add that the way we suggest the staff, and they confirmed, with an independent TAL protects, as intended by the proposal, the resources of the RIR implementing it, not creating any issues in what is done in other RIRs to any operator, so it can?t be taken as a valid objection against this policy proposal.<br><br><br><br>It is difficult to understand what it means ?additional stress? in this context, but clearly, it will be in the other way around. As more RIRs implement it, less manual work in terms of filtering, is needed to be done by operators, if they opt to use the AS0 ROA service from the RIRs that have implemented it. So, it is not correct and thus, not a valid objection.<br><br><br><br>If the question is about if this policy should be a Global Policy, the response has also been provided in the discussion. Ideally, a Global Policy will be only able to protect the IANA unallocated resources, but not the resources that IANA already allocated to each RIR. In fact, I?m already working (when time permits it will be made public) in a Global Policy for that, but this is irrelevant versus having a policy at every RIR (or a few of them), so again, objectively not a valid objection.<br><br><br><br>5. ?e. Validity period: if members decide to implement it, is it not better to recover the space if it is kept unused for too long?? <br><br>This doesn?t make sense, at least not as worded. This is not about recovering space, no relation. It is the unused space hold by AFRINIC, regardless of if it was never allocated/assigned, returned by members, or recovered by AFRINIC. Once more, not a valid objection.<br><br><br><br>6. ?f. How do we revoke the ROA? How long does it take to revoke it (chain/ refreshing )?? <br><br>This looks the same as 2.2 above. It doesn?t matter in practice, if it takes minutes or hours or even days. Community and staff provided some facts about this, just to cite a couple of them:<br><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011335.html" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/<wbr>pipermail/rpd/2020/011335.html</a><br><br><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011348.html" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/<wbr>pipermail/rpd/2020/011348.html</a><br><br><br><br>7. ?g. What happens if AFRINIC accidentally issues a ROA for an address in error?? <br><br>What happens if AFRINIC accidentally issues a ROA without an address already allocated to members?<br><br><br><br>Exactly the same if the existing RPKI fails, and that?s why there are monitoring systems in place and as reported by the staff impact analysis, this proposal will ensure that the monitoring is improved, so it is actually helping on the right direction, not in the other way around.<br><br><br><br>Further to that, because the systems of operators have caches, it is all depending (for the existing TAL and for the new one implemented with this proposal) on how much time it takes to AFRINIC to resolve the error and the specific configuration of the operators and if they actually drop invalid prefixes or they only create alerts, trigger some processes, etc. Note that RPKI doesn?t force the operators to drop the prefixes even if they are using RPKI, there are different ways to take advantage of this.<br><br><br><br>This proposal doesn't change that, it is provided as an opt-in service and consequently it is not a valid objection.<br><br><br><br>8. ?h. It also might affect the neighbours and involves monitoring of unallocated spaces? <br><br>It is not clear if neighbours here is referring to BGP peering ones.<br><br><br><br>The same monitoring that right now is done AFRINIC for unallocated/unassigned spaces could be improved with this proposal. AFRINIC already, today, needs to make sure that they get alerts if unallocated/unassigned space appears in the routing tables, because that may imply that a member may be violating the RSA, bylaws, policies, etc.<br><br><br><br>Exactly the same as for operators connected to Internet with BGP. The proposal allows them, as an opt-in service, to improve if they wish, the automation of all that, and to use the service in the way they decide. The proposal is not forcing operators any specific usage for the service, it is entirely at their own decision/discretion.<br><br><br><br>This proposal ensures that the service is improved so, hijacking of unused space is less prone to occur, that?s the purpose of the proposal and RPKI, increase the routing security, without making it mandatory for any operator. Consequently, once more, this can?t be considered a valid objection.<br><br><br><br>9. ?i. Possibility of it being used against a member who is yet to pay dues? <br><br>According to AFRINIC bylaws and RSA, AFRINIC has the obligation to avoid members not paying to stop using the resources, so they are available to other members.<br><br><br><br>It will be unfair and discriminatory to other members not doing so, and that?s the reason, even if we don?t have this proposal, AFRINIC could at any time, following the bylaws and RSA, do whatever actions, including legal and technical ones, to make sure that unallocated, or unassigned, or returned, or recovered resources are not used. As part of those actions, AFRINIC could even ask in courts to stop routing those resources, even to other operators. It is AFRINIC duty, practically will probably not make sense in terms of the cost (unless a major hijacking of AFRINIC resources occurs). Most probably just the cooperation among operators, without any legal requirement, will make that happen. So, this proposal doesn?t change that in the sense of adding to AFRINIC any new prerogative because already have that right and duty regarding the responsible use of the resources only to the allocated/assigned parties and in compliance with the legal bindings.<br><br><br><br>To further explain this, if a member decides to stop paying, AFRINIC, following legal bindings, will follow a procedure to try to fix it, and if it doesn?t succeed, will remove whois data (which in turn will cause the removal of route objects that depend on them), RDNS (which means the address space becomes in general unusable), etc.<br><br><br><br>Clearly, once more, this can?t be considered a valid objection, on the other way around is a fundamental AFRINIC?s right and duty.<br><br><br><br>I urge you to respond to each of those objections, accepted by the chairs to declare the lack of consensus, that the authors and other community members DEMONSTRATED with OBJECTIVE information, are invalid.<br><br><br><br>Again, please, Appeal Committee members, respond OBJECTIVELY AND BASED ON FACTS, NOT PERSONAL PREFERENCES. The report MUST contain detailed demonstration of why the Appeal Committee (not individual members) say each of those objections has not been addressed, while the authors and community believe otherwise.<br><br><br><br>This is what we expect from an Appeal Committee, to OBJECTIVELY review what the chairs objserved, when the Appeal Document clearly demonstrated that it is invalid and consequently the chairs took a wrong decision, based on personal preferences of community members or lack of knowledge, or other not objective or untrue facts.<br><br><br><br>Regards,<br><br>Jordi<br><br>@jordipalet<br><br><br><br><br><br><br><br>El 22/1/21 13:59, "wafa Dahmani" <<a href="mailto:wafatn7604@gmail.com" target="_blank">wafatn7604@gmail.com</a>> escribi?:<br><br><br><br>Dear Community,<br><br><br><br>This is to inform you that the Report on Appeal against the non-consensus determination on proposal AFPUB-2019-GEN-006-DRAFT02 (RPKI ROAs for Unallocated and Unassigned AFRINIC Address Space ? Draft 2) and the minutes have been published following the links below:<br><br><br><br><a href="https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/policy/20210121-rpki-roa-appeal-report.pdf" target="_blank">https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/<wbr>policy/20210121-rpki-roa-<wbr>appeal-report.pdf</a><br><br><br><br><a href="https://afrinic.net/policy/appeal-committee#appeals" target="_blank">https://afrinic.net/policy/<wbr>appeal-committee#appeals</a><br><br><br><br>Best Regards<br><br>Wafa Dahmani<br><br>Chair of the Appeal Committee<br><br><br><br>______________________________<wbr>_________________ RPD mailing list <a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank">RPD@afrinic.net</a> <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" target="_blank">https://lists.afrinic.net/<wbr>mailman/listinfo/rpd</a> <br><br><br>******************************<wbr>****************<br>IPv4 is over<br>Are you ready for the new Internet ?<br><a href="http://www.theipv6company.com/" target="_blank">http://www.theipv6company.com</a><br>The IPv6 Company<br><br>This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. 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