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<p>Hi Paschal, and fellow RPD participants,<br>
<br>
Sorry for an overly long email, I have made a few suggestions
lower down, and these may not make sense without following my
entire reasoning, perhaps they will. Please bear with me.<br>
</p>
<p>I believe moderation != censorship. Also, threat !=
warning/notification. Otherwise I agree with both the content and
the sentiment of your email.<br>
</p>
<p>The proposed moderation as I understood wasn't on the basis of
censoring thoughts but rather ensuring that everybody subscribed
represents an actual individual, and can at least show some form
of interest. I could see myself possibly supporting that if it
came to it.<br>
</p>
<p>Personally I don't mind people using multiple addresses, for
example Mike using his @gmail for personal views, and his Liquid
address when speaking on behalf of the company. This is open and
transparent - no problems.<br>
</p>
<p>What I believe is being objected against is the same person
pretending to be multiple people, which is dishonest and
deceptive. I'm not speaking towards whether this has or has not
happened over the last few days, weeks or even months.<br>
</p>
<p>I'd be able to support that, but not censorship (in other words,
where emails are filtered selectively based on opinion being
expressed).</p>
<p>To an extent I can appreciate censorship against rudeness and
personal attacks, but it's difficult to draw the line anywhere
sensible because what one considers offensive is not to another.
So the only sensible line to draw is "no emotion whatsoever" and
none of us are Vulcan, so that's also a matter of practical
impossibility. As such the only other indisputable line is no
line. That doesn't fly either, and as such we have rules. The
problem is we don't all interpret these rules the same, or
emotions gets the better of us. If you call me sly I might take
that as a compliment, or I could take offence, depending on both
the context and perceived intent - and therein lies the problem:
<b>actual</b> intent vs <b>perceived</b> intent.<br>
</p>
<p>Let's say someone calls me sly, I have two choices: I can choose
to take offence or not, and then I can choose to throw a tantrum
about it, or not. In many cases we make this choice without
thinking about it, doesn't mean we didn't make the choice. The
faster we choose to not take offence, and the faster we realise
that offence is largely taken, not given, the faster we can move
forward. No, I'm not saying name calling or any other form of
personal attack is warranted, justified or acceptable. I'm saying
these only carry any effect if you choose to let them. Choosing
the opposite is sometimes hard.<br>
</p>
<p>I'm fairly certain that Mike won't mind me using him as an
example above, but I can't be 100% certain. That's simply
impossible. I need to trust that Mike is enough of an adult to
not take offence at being singled out. I also need to be adult
enough to not purposefully put content in front of Mike to which
he is likely to take offence.<br>
</p>
<p>What I do know without a shadow of a doubt is that the
discussions should not continue on the path it's currently going.
We're running in emotional circles and not getting anywhere
sensible.</p>
<p>Two primary discussions that went on recently refers:<br>
<br>
1. The abuse contact issue.<br>
<br>
2. The inter-RIR transfer policy.</p>
<p>On both there has been a lot said over the last month, and still
no (sensible/desirable) outcomes. It seems that there are in both
cases two groups of people either vehemently opposed to, or in
support of the proposal, but no consensus.</p>
<p>In both cases to me it seems that one side is trying to be
rational but getting emotional due to being frustrated with
illogical and often emotional arguments.</p>
<p>Now more proposals are being raised, causing more division.
Alienating more people, and frankly, still going in circles .
(Sorry Noah, based on your previous interactions I'm sure you
won't take offence, but to be clear, none intended, I'm personally
just not convinced another policy proposal is what's required
right at the moment.) At the end of the day there are no winners,
and the losers are all of us, and those whom we represent, and all
the residents of Africa by implication. My stances on both the
above two discussions is well known. I can also honestly say that
I've made every attempt to understand those that view these
different to myself. I can personally say that I've made every
attempt (and failed) to keep my emails on these matters
professional, concise, and with as little emotion as possible.<br>
</p>
<p>I can read the frustration in many of the emails of the preceding
weeks. I think it's time that we all take a deep breath, and
think for a moment what it is that we're really trying to achieve,
and why we're really pushing for or against a specific policy. We
need to breathe, and try to understand the opposing viewpoint. We
need to make sure that we make our own viewpoints clear, and
explain why we say what we say. We need to reason with logic, not
emotion.<br>
</p>
<p>Towards this end I'd like to propose:<br>
<br>
1. In the case of process violations, please quote the CPM you
say has been violated (specifically section numbers), and be clear
as to why you say it's a violation, what would you have expected
differently.<br>
2. In the case of objections to policies, please state clearly
why it's a problem.<br>
3. In the case of responses to (2), please address the concern.</p>
<p>In squash (and I'm certain other sports) we would say play the
ball, not the man.</p>
<p>There are (as far as I know) five related proposals now.<br>
<br>
2 for abuse contact, one submitted, with an appeal to the call of
no-concensus. Another that was just raised.</p>
<p>3 (possibly 4) inter-RIR transfer policy proposals. One of which
has been pushed to ratification and has now been brought back to
last call, which some (myself included) would like to come back
all the way to discussion since we believe the issues are more
than mere editorial. Having just read through section 3 of the
CPM again, I can state that I don't believe there is any clause
specifically permitting or rejecting changes during last call,
however there are clear indications that changes during this
period isn't the intention (3.4.3 which is clearly intended for a
final *review*, not *development*, as such, my interpretation is
that no consensus means it must go back to discussion), but taking
a proposal back from last call back to discussion to fix grammar
also seems wrong. Probably why the de facto rule is "editorial
changes during last call only" as this is the only kind of change
(fix grammar, spelling or similar) that don't (shouldn't at least)
change meaning/intent.<br>
</p>
<p>Towards making progress, may I suggest that the author of each
proposal please create a new thread, and summarises the following
as concisely as possible:<br>
<br>
1. Problem being addressed. (Why)<br>
2. How it's being addressed.<br>
3. Link to the specific proposal on
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals">https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals</a><br>
4. The concerns that have been raised, and how they have been
addressed.<br>
5. Any known outstanding concerns.<br>
6. Current state, for example "final call", "under discussion",
"no consensus declared, appeal for consensus pending".<br>
<br>
Please let the thread subject reference the specific proposal
(full name as per <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals">https://afrinic.net/policy/proposals</a>).</p>
<p>If anyone has a concern then that's not listed there (with the
current text as on the link), please do provide it in a civil
manner, if your concern is listed, and you're not happy with the
way it's been addressed, same story. Please remember the <b>why</b>
it is a problem. If the fact that the text is green is a problem
and you can't say why it's a problem it probably means it's not.
Where possible, please propose alternate text/amendments which
takes current intent into consideration.<br>
</p>
<p>Let the authors then collate again, and we do another round or
two of the above. Or ten if that's what's required. Hopefully
during this we'll be able to get rid of some proposals and agree
on what remains.<br>
</p>
<p>For the reciprocity issues, please authors, I know you probably
know the other RIRs policy better than I do, which is near naught,
so where possible, please do state any known possible issues, and
where possible, please state for us as well where you believe the
policies are reciprocal. For example, I know one of the sticky
points is the handling of legacy space. So let's make sure that
we address the sticky points with reciprocity.<br>
</p>
<p>I'm inclined to say let's leave the "in support of" emails out
for the moment, we know each proposal has it's supporters. Let's
try and not duplicate each other. Let's slow it down, in a manner
of speaking. It may well get us past the goal posts faster.</p>
<p>For both cases we will need to pick a policy, or possibly create
a whole new policy out of the good pieces of the existing ones.
But we cannot continue the way we have.<br>
</p>
<p>Kind Regards,<br>
Jaco<br>
</p>
On 2020/10/19 18:32, Paschal Ochang wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAMU0wT7J9q3z5KyMhATSDNT3gvwqnrTZjZdBziAsr29MdnR+RQ@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
I keep hearing people quoting the CPM or PDP process here but I
can bet you that if a legal counsel is to moderate our discussions
a lot of us violate the process intentionally or unintentionally
so some times adopting best practices while accommodating laid
down principles is a good way to go.
<div>I also saw the mail notifying the cochairs of the appeal as
if threatening them that an appeal is coming. </div>
<div>While I believe in following the process I also believe in
the principle of doing it in a civil manner and with the
ideology of do unto others what you want others to do to you. I
have seen calls here for moderation and I believe if these
moderation is adopted a lot of us carrying out certain rhetoric
will be banned due to lack of respect for constituted authority.
In the end we should remeber that we are all here for one goal
and not all these personal vendetta of name calling. Let it
rest.<br>
<br>
On Monday, October 19, 2020, Daniel Yakmut via RPD <<a
href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>My take here is that I am questioning the spirit of the
appeal. But of course the appellant has the right to
appeal.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I understand the process clearly, I was
questioning why would someone be telling the Co-chairs to
note the forwarding of an appeal, when it is not their
perogative.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I would not mind going on an unwinding road
if it leads to a result, but taking a trip on such road
knowing fully well it will result to null, it shouldn't be
called a PDP. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Simply</div>
<div dir="auto">Daniel<br>
<div class="gmail_extra" dir="auto"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Oct 19, 2020 8:58 AM, "Noah"
<<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:<br
type="attribution">
<blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 19
Oct 2020, 10:13 Daniel Yakmut via RPD,
<<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Is it the Co-Chairs that should
confirm receipt of the appeal? I
thought it is their action that is
being appealed. If we claim we know
the process the appeal process is
handled by the appeal committee. So
the confirmation should be directed to
them, not the Co-Chairs.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">On the other hand, you dont seem
to understand the process. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">1st step.</div>
<div dir="auto">The appeal against the action of
the cochair on this proposal was sent to the
appeal committee first and the supporters of the
appeal as indicated in the document wrote to the
committee to confirm their support.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">2nd step.</div>
<div dir="auto">The appellant then did the needful
as per the appeal process by informing the
working group that there is an appeal and
members of the working group who support the
appeal have continued to state as such.</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>That not withstanding, this appeal
was done in bad faith </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Since when is following the PDP
process which gives the right to the working
group to appeal bad faith.</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>and will take us very long and
torturous path.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Called the policy development
process.</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p> The most sensible action, which I
agreed with, was the suggestion by
Jordi for an extension of the last
call.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Shortcuts dont form part of the
policy development even countries regulations
and laws take process as per the law.</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>The appeal should be ignored in
favour of a more realistic suggestion
by Jordi. I consider it as the only
suggestion deviod of any sentiment.</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Yet the process allows appeal. Are
you against the PDP.</div>
<font color="#888888">
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Noah</div>
</font>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Simply,</p>
<p>Daniel<br>
</p>
<div>On 16/10/2020 7:48 pm, Jaco Kroon
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I also support this appeal.</p>
<p>Could the PDWG chairs please
confirm receipt of appeal and
confirm that all process
requirements have been met?</p>
<p>Kind Regards,<br>
Jaco<br>
</p>
On 2020/10/15 14:46, Gregoire EHOUMI
via RPD wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"> <span
style="text-align:-webkit-auto">Hello,</span><br>
<div>
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>As per appeal
process, see below a
copy of my email to
appeal committee. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Thank you and
best regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--<br>
<div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="text-align:-webkit-auto;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="text-align:-webkit-auto;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="text-align:-webkit-auto;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div>Gregoire
Ehoumi</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px"><span
style="font-size:14px"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">Gregoire
EHOUMI <<a
href="mailto:gregoire.ehoumi@yahoo.fr"
rel="noreferrer
noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">gregoire.ehoumi@yahoo.fr</a>><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Appeal
against the declaration of
consensus on proposal
Resource Transfer Policy</b><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">October
15, 2020 at 8:16:43 AM EDT<br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a
href="mailto:pdwg-appeal@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">pdwg-appeal@afrinic.net</a><br>
</span></div>
<div
style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Cc:
</b></span><span
style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica
Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">Fernando
Frediani <<a
href="mailto:fhfrediani@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer
noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">fhfrediani@gmail.com</a>>,
Noah <<a
href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz"
rel="noreferrer
noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>>,
Darwin Costa <<a
href="mailto:dc@darwincosta.com"
rel="noreferrer
noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">dc@darwincosta.com</a>>,
Arnaud AMELINA <<a
href="mailto:amelnaud@gmail.com"
rel="noreferrer
noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">amelnaud@gmail.com</a>><br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<p><span
style="font-family:"Arial",sans-serif"
lang="EN-US">Dear
Appeal Committee,</span></p>
<p><font face="Arial,
sans-serif">I attach
in PDF the document
referenced in the
subject of this email.</font></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Please
confirm receipt and
that no information is
missing before the
applicable deadlines.</span></p>
<p><span
style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">I
also copy community
members who have
participated in this
discussion supporting
this appeal.</span></p>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
I <span
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-align:-webkit-auto">look
forward to hearing from
you. </span>
<div>
<div
style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
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style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica">--<br>
<div>
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style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
style="text-align:-webkit-auto;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div
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<div
style="text-align:-webkit-auto;word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div>Gregoire
Ehoumi</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:Helvetica"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div
style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
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<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
RPD mailing list
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/rpd</a>
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<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<pre>______________________________<wbr>_________________
RPD mailing list
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/rpd</a>
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______________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
RPD mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br>
<a
href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd"
rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.afrinic.net/mail<wbr>man/listinfo/rpd</a><br>
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-- <br>
Kind regards,
<p>Paschal.<br>
</p>
<br>
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<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RPD mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net">RPD@afrinic.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a>
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