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    <p>We are becoming intolerant and dictatorial if we attempt in any
      form to begin to sanction or moderate posts that are not
      supportive of an opinion. I don't see any reason why we should
      suggest or contemplate any moderation.</p>
    <p>I don't also agree with attempts at cowing others not to express
      their opinions because they differ. If we are sure that there are
      ghost IDs on the mailing list then let us take necessary actions.
      However, for now there are attempts at shutting and shouting down
      people.</p>
    <p>Correctly, appeal cannot be stopped, but it has to be justified.
      And if some said they are against an appeal, i think my
      interpretation will be the person is against the content of the
      appeal, which of course does stop the appeal. However, whether you
      are to say I am against an appeal is another matter.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Simply</p>
    <p>Daniel<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 19/10/2020 7:16 am, Mike Silber
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAE-cm4LETte2pYBRsc7um6ciTeFTVUYk5N=GYPmj+cmQk19cFQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="auto">Lucilla or whatever your actual name is.</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">Thank you for confirming for the mailing list that
        you and Ekatarina form part of the same echo chamber.</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">Now you have been exposed, you attempt to create
        distance from that person/identity, but it is not working.</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">As I wrote before, your opinion on the appeal is
        frankly irrelevant. The appeal process is to an appeal
        committee. There is no mechanism in the PDP to oppose an appeal.</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">The appeal process is (supposed to be) objective
        and (hopefully) not capable of manipulation.</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">This mailing list has been populated by sock
        puppets and fictional identities for years. People from various
        view points and perspectives have been using these identities to
        amplify their views. So this behavior is not new!</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">I am not sure if it has come time to require
        moderation of all posts and positive confirmation of identity
        before that moderation is lifted?</div>
      <div dir="auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="auto">Mike</div>
      <div><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 19 Oct 2020 at
            07:49, lucilla fornaro <<a
              href="mailto:lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com"
              moz-do-not-send="true">lucillafornarosawamoto@gmail.com</a>>
            wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div dir="ltr">I read your email!
                <div>You answered back to Ekaterina, asking HER an
                  explanation for what SHE wrote! Why should I talk on
                  her behalf? How do I know what she meant by using
                  those words?</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Is this a constructive discussion? I don't think
                  so.</div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Lucilla </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
            <div class="gmail_quote">
              <div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno lun 19 ott
                2020 alle ore 14:35 Frank Habicht <<a
                  href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>> ha
                scritto:<br>
              </div>
              <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
                <br>
                it seems you didn't read my email. the one you replied
                to.<br>
                any comments about what I wrote?<br>
                <br>
                Thanks,<br>
                Frank<br>
                <br>
                On 19/10/2020 08:29, lucilla fornaro wrote:<br>
                > Dear Frank,<br>
                > <br>
                > you were the last one who posted and by "reply to
                all" you were inserted<br>
                > as well. It was not intentional, but I don't think
                it creates<br>
                > any confusion either. The main topic here is the
                Appeal, and what I<br>
                > wrote is related to that! <br>
                > <br>
                > Lucilla <br>
                > <br>
                > <br>
                > Il giorno lun 19 ott 2020 alle ore 14:15 Frank
                Habicht<br>
                > <<a href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>>>
                ha scritto:<br>
                > <br>
                >     Hi all,<br>
                > <br>
                >     For the record: below email from Lucilla is a
                *reply* to my email but<br>
                >     not a response to any content of my email.<br>
                > <br>
                >     Others might get confused.<br>
                >     I'm sure that was not intended. But for the
                future it would help to<br>
                >     reply to the emails that one is referring to
                (or start a new thread).<br>
                >     Like maybe the appeal email in this case....<br>
                > <br>
                >     Thanks,<br>
                >     Frank<br>
                > <br>
                >     On 19/10/2020 05:15, lucilla fornaro wrote:<br>
                >     > Dear Community,<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > I am against this appeal for the following
                reasons:<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *1.1* Co-chairs followed the procedure
                fulfilling their administrative<br>
                >     > function within the scope of the CPM. The
                co-chairs carried out their<br>
                >     > administrative functions that include
                advancing suggestions.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > Consequently, the authors have the choice
                to adopt the suggestions and<br>
                >     > make a change.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > The PDP allows and does not forbid the
                co-chairs from making<br>
                >     suggestions<br>
                >     > concerning major objections facilitating
                the overall discussion<br>
                >     related<br>
                >     > to the policy that can potentially reach
                consensus.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *1.2 *“Rough consensus is achieved when
                all issues are addressed, but<br>
                >     > not necessarily accommodated”. That is
                exactly what happened: the<br>
                >     policy<br>
                >     > reached a rough consensus during the PPM
                (openly determined<br>
                >     > by Co-chairs) and went to the last call
                for some editorial changes.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *1.3* PDP needs to be considered as a
                guideline of practices and not<br>
                >     > strict rules. It adopts COMMONLY accepted
                practices and provides the<br>
                >     > FLEXIBILITY to adapt to a variety of
                circumstances that can occur<br>
                >     during<br>
                >     > the discussion of policies.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > Co-chairs did not make the rough consensus
                of the policy conditional,<br>
                >     > they have just advanced some suggestions,
                that as we said fulfilling<br>
                >     > their administrative function within the
                scope of Afrinic.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *1.4* The PDP is managed and administered
                by the CPM that does not<br>
                >     > forbid making changes.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > If we want to follow an objective reading
                and interpretation of<br>
                >     PDP, we<br>
                >     > will see that nowhere in the text it is
                stated that the policy is not<br>
                >     > allowed to underdo editorial changes after
                the meeting. This means<br>
                >     that<br>
                >     > no violation occurred.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *1.5* No major changes have been addressed
                in the last 2 drafts,<br>
                >     in fact<br>
                >     > there was no need for Impact Analysis from
                Afrinic. It is clear<br>
                >     that the<br>
                >     > community members have had exhaustive time
                to discuss the policy and<br>
                >     > therefore there is no violation of CPM.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *1.6* Co-Chairs job is to address major
                objections and suggest changes<br>
                >     > (it is part of their administrative
                work). The co-chairs have<br>
                >     never been<br>
                >     > intrusive or coercive in their
                suggestions. They have never tried to<br>
                >     > persuade the authors to make changes by
                using threats.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *2.1* The Working Group Chairs MAY request
                AFRINIC to provide an<br>
                >     > analysis of the changes made and of how
                these changes impact the<br>
                >     policy<br>
                >     > proposal. This proves that no major
                changes have been made for DRAFT03<br>
                >     > and DRAFT04, therefore there is no need
                for an Impact Assessment from<br>
                >     > AFRINIC .<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *2.2 *By removing the previous paragraph,
                the authors did not<br>
                >     alter the<br>
                >     > overall purpose of the proposal.  For what
                concerns 5.7.3.1, 5.7.3.2,<br>
                >     > 5.7.4.1, changes concern the styles used
                in the document and general<br>
                >     > appearance and this is to be considered
                under the “editorial change”.<br>
                >     > Simple clarifications that do not alter
                the substantive meaning of the<br>
                >     > proposal material.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > *2.3* The proposal has been exhaustively
                discussed in the RPD<br>
                >     mailing list.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > RIPE indicates AFRINIC the references and
                recommendations that it<br>
                >     needs<br>
                >     > to manage legacy space.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > The current transfer policy's purpose does
                not mainly focus on solving<br>
                >     > this problem.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > This proposal was done with the intention
                of gaining reciprocity with<br>
                >     > the principal contributor of IPv4s which
                is ARIN.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > ARIN has responded that the Resource
                Transfer Policy is not compatible<br>
                >     > with their inter-RIR transfer policies
                because of the following<br>
                >     > statement therein - “The source must be
                the current rights holder<br>
                >     of the<br>
                >     > IPv4 address resources registered with any
                RIR and shall be in<br>
                >     > compliance with the policies of the
                receiving RIR.”<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > regards,<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > Lucilla <br>
                >     ><br>
                >     ><br>
                >     > Il giorno lun 19 ott 2020 alle ore 01:02
                Frank Habicht<br>
                >     > <<a href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>><br>
                >     <mailto:<a href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:geier@geier.ne.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">geier@geier.ne.tz</a>>>>
                ha scritto:<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     Hi Ekaterina,<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     see inline below.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     16/10/2020 20:33, Ekaterina Kalugina
                wrote:<br>
                >     >     > Dear community,<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > I believe this appeal is
                problematic for the following reasons.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >  1.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >     The compliance to the PDP and
                consensus determination<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 1.3 The policy discussion we had
                was complex and nuanced and<br>
                >     therefore<br>
                >     >     > it was the co-chairs duty to
                reflect this nuance in their<br>
                >     conclusions.<br>
                >     >     > There was no conditions imposed.<br>
                >     >                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^<br>
                >     >     > The co-chairs simply stated that
                if<br>
                >     >                                       ^^^^<br>
                >     >     > some minor objections were to be
                addressed by the authors<br>
                >     then the<br>
                >     >     > policy have achieved rough
                consensus.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     I think the part after the 'if' is a
                condition.<br>
                >     >     I think you're contradicting yourself.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     Maybe I have a problem with my English
                knowledge. If so,<br>
                >     please help me<br>
                >     >     understand.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     Of course after that (what I call a
                contradiction), I could<br>
                >     not continue<br>
                >     >     reading the email, because I can't be
                sure whether you base you<br>
                >     >     arguments on "no conditions" or on "If
                ...".<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     I really hope co-chairs and all in
                this WG don't give too much<br>
                >     weight to<br>
                >     >     arguments based on self-contradicting
                statements. The facts<br>
                >     are there.<br>
                >     >     And of course I hope that was
                "professional and respectful"<br>
                >     enough for<br>
                >     >     Lamiaa.<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     Regards,<br>
                >     >     Frank<br>
                >     ><br>
                >     >     > Nowhere in the PDP it states how<br>
                >     >     > exactly the chairs should
                determine consensus, therefore I<br>
                >     believe<br>
                >     >     that<br>
                >     >     > in this case the chairs acted
                within their prerogative.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 1.4 The CPM does not explicitly
                state that only editorial<br>
                >     changes are<br>
                >     >     > allowed. However, as you pointed
                out, it is understandable<br>
                >     that such<br>
                >     >     > changes may be necessary. The
                fact that editorial changes<br>
                >     are the only<br>
                >     >     > changes that have been made up to
                this point does not mean<br>
                >     that these<br>
                >     >     > are the only changes allowed. The
                PDP is determined by the<br>
                >     CPM and not<br>
                >     >     > by the past practices, and the
                CPM does not forbid any<br>
                >     changes during<br>
                >     >     > the last call, be it editorial or
                not.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 1.5 The other proposals did not
                achieve consensus during the<br>
                >     >     meeting as<br>
                >     >     > there were still many unresolved
                major objections. The Resource<br>
                >     >     Transfer<br>
                >     >     > Policy only had minor issues that
                could be easily addressed<br>
                >     by the<br>
                >     >     > authors. Therefore, there is no
                unfairness in regard to this<br>
                >     issue.<br>
                >     >     > And again, nowhere in the CPM it
                states that non-editorial<br>
                >     changes are<br>
                >     >     > not allowed to take place during
                the last call.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 1.6 These were not suggestions,
                but conclusions drawn by the<br>
                >     >     chairs from<br>
                >     >     > the discussion. They did
                summarize the discussion in an<br>
                >     objective and<br>
                >     >     > non-intrusive manner. But you
                need to keep in mind that a<br>
                >     nuanced<br>
                >     >     > discussion requires a nuanced
                summary.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 1.7. Fairness is the basic
                principle that guides the PDP and<br>
                >     that<br>
                >     >     > includes actions of the
                co-chairs.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >  2.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >     Specific issues regarding the
                proposal being appealed<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 2.1 As the current situation
                holds – the staff assessment is not<br>
                >     >     > mandatory and therefore this is
                not a legitimate ground for the<br>
                >     >     appeal.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 2.2 Again, nowhere in the CPM it
                states that significant changes<br>
                >     >     cannot<br>
                >     >     > be done during the last call. In
                this case particularly, all the<br>
                >     >     changes<br>
                >     >     > in the DRAFT-04 have been made to
                ensure that the Resource<br>
                >     Transfer<br>
                >     >     > Policy  is fully compatible with
                ARIN. There is no need for<br>
                >     another<br>
                >     >     > discussion, as this change
                directly addresses all the issues<br>
                >     raised in<br>
                >     >     > all the discussions that preceded
                the publication of this draft.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > 2.3 The issue of legacy resources
                is far too complex to be<br>
                >     >     realistically<br>
                >     >     > considered within the scope of
                the proposed policy. The goal<br>
                >     of this<br>
                >     >     > policy is to make sure AFRINIC
                can receive resources from other<br>
                >     >     RIRs and<br>
                >     >     > the loss of legacy status is
                necessary to ensure<br>
                >     reciprocity. However,<br>
                >     >     > if there is some perceived
                unfairness when it comes to the<br>
                >     transfer of<br>
                >     >     > legacy resources, a separate
                policy ought to be introduced<br>
                >     >     following the<br>
                >     >     > Resource Transfer policy. There
                will be the right time and place<br>
                >     >     to have<br>
                >     >     > a discussion on legacy with all
                its nuances. As of now, the main<br>
                >     >     > priority for the region is to
                have a resource transfer<br>
                >     policy that is<br>
                >     >     > reciprocal with other RIRs.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > As for your note that this
                proposal is not actually<br>
                >     reciprocal with<br>
                >     >     > other RIRs – it is factually
                incorrect. The staff confirmed<br>
                >     that the<br>
                >     >     > DRAFT-02 and DRAFT-03 are not
                compatible with ARIN, and this is<br>
                >     >     > precisely the reason DRAFT-04 was
                introduced. And before you say<br>
                >     >     that it<br>
                >     >     > was too hasty and it needed more
                discussion – it really doesn’t.<br>
                >     >     > DRAFT-04 just removed the section
                on the sending RIR being bound<br>
                >     >     by the<br>
                >     >     > policies of the receiving RIR
                that made the policy<br>
                >     incompatible with<br>
                >     >     > ARIN as per staff assessment.
                Thus, with all the edits<br>
                >     considered the<br>
                >     >     > DRAFT-04 of the Resource Transfer
                Policy should be<br>
                >     functional and<br>
                >     >     fully<br>
                >     >     > compatible with other RIRs.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > Considering the above, I believe
                this appeal lacks the necessary<br>
                >     >     grounds<br>
                >     >     > to call for the non-declaration
                of concensus. <br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > Best, <br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > Ekaterina Kalugina <br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     > On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, 19:17 Noah
                <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a><br>
                >     <mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>><br>
                >     >     <mailto:<a
                  href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a> <mailto:<a
                  href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>>><br>
                >     <mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>><br>
                >     <mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">noah@neo.co.tz</a>>>>><br>
                >     >     > wrote:<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >     On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, 15:59
                Gregoire EHOUMI via RPD,<br>
                >     >     <<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
                >     <mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>><br>
                >     >     >     <mailto:<a
                  href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a> <mailto:<a
                  href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net" target="_blank"
                  moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>><br>
                >     <mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>
                <mailto:<a href="mailto:rpd@afrinic.net"
                  target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">rpd@afrinic.net</a>>>>>
                wrote:<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >         Hello,<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >         As per appeal process,
                see below a copy of my email<br>
                >     to appeal<br>
                >     >     >         committee. <br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >     Hi Greg<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >     Pleased to fully support
                this appeal against the cochairs<br>
                >     >     >     declaration of rough
                consensus and consensus on a<br>
                >     proposal that is<br>
                >     >     >     had several unresolved valid
                objections. <br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >     The cochairs erred bigly and
                its absurd to see the PDP<br>
                >     process<br>
                >     >     >     ignored at every step by
                those who must ensure that they<br>
                >     follow it<br>
                >     >     >     while acting fairly without
                being subjective like we<br>
                >     have seen<br>
                >     >     recently.<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >     Cheers<br>
                >     >     >     Noah<br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     ><br>
                >     >     >   
                 _______________________________________________<br>
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      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
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