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<p dir="auto">Dear Elvis,</p>
<p dir="auto">I apologise that it seems a very basic step but for any consensus to be achieved or alternatively for people to definitely agree to disagree there has to be a meeting of minds (or agreement to disagree) on simple underlying principles. In this case, three basic issues for a start surrounding abuse-c.</p>
<p dir="auto">Thanks for confirming your viewpoint. I’ll await to see if other people have other viewpoints.</p>
<p dir="auto">As per asking for clarity on Lamiaa’s specific view on the proposed 8.5 wording, it is equally important, for a different reason that I will try to explain.</p>
<p dir="auto">If you make a statement and I disagree with you, I need to display objectivity by explaining <em>why</em> I disagree with you. If we ask staff to step in with their view, we also need to refer to it in our discussions. I believe you and Jordi were using the term “constructivism” in another thread. If someone else comes along and disagrees with the both of us they’d owe both us and the community the courtesy of responding to our specific points. This is because neither the authors, staff, nor bystanders can respond to subjective statements.</p>
<p dir="auto">It is in this spirit that for the RPKI thread I took time to try and explain points that some members kept bringing up and others kept saying were irrelevant or out-of-scope. Deadlocks where people keep pointing fingers at each other saying the others are plain wrong do not help anybody and degrade the quality of the discussions.</p>
<p dir="auto">The desired outcomes would include an author changing text on an item or possibly withdrawing a proposal or that a misunderstanding is cleared up.</p>
<p dir="auto">It is however possible for two fundamentally opposing views to both be right. At that point the discussion can be shelved for a later date when possibly circumstances swing consensus in one direction or another. This is the agreement to disagree.</p>
<p dir="auto">On 4 Oct 2020, at 7:09 EAT, Ibeanusi Elvis wrote:</p>
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<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid #5855D5; color:#5855D5; margin:0 0 5px; padding-left:5px"><div id="A0CA99AD-97A0-4B75-A554-FEA7DBC6DD49"><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Patrick, dear community;<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I believe that if you check the thread of emails chronologically, you will clearly understand Lamiaa’s viewpoints and perspective when it comes to this issue of abuse contact policy. No need for her to continuously say or outline her point in every email. Additionally, this same viewpoint is shared by myself, Lucilla and Lamiaa which I strongly support.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thanks.</div><div class="">Elvis.<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Oct 4, 2020, at 11:55, Patrick Okui <<a href="mailto:pokui@psg.com" class="">pokui@psg.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Dear Lucilla, all,</p><p dir="auto" class="">Actually it is very useful for someone to clarify exactly what statement they are referring to and why they agree or disagree with existing statements around that issue. Without that, it’s impossible to understand each other’s viewpoints. I’ll await her clarity on if I’m understanding her issue with the proposed 8.5</p><p dir="auto" class="">However from what the two of you are saying (plus your comments on another thread supporting a larger change deleting an entire section which I’ve read) can we agree on the following statements about abuse contact handling (with or without this policy):</p>
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<li value="1" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">mandatory abuse-c is needed in whois.</p></li>
<li value="2" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">validation of the abuse-c is needed.</p></li>
<li value="3" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">failure to comply would be treated as normal violation of RSA.</p></li>
</ol><p dir="auto" class="">Please correct me if I’m wrong on this. It would also be helpful if anyone who disagrees with these three basic statements speaks up with their reasons why.</p><p dir="auto" class="">On 4 Oct 2020, at 5:33 EAT, lucilla fornaro wrote:</p>
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<blockquote style="border-left:2px solid #5855D5; color:#5855D5; margin:0 0 5px; padding-left:5px" class=""><div id="7D825C09-EC50-4D6C-9F5E-801AAC04B380" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">dear Patrick, dear all,</div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">I think Lamiaa has been very clear about what concerns her position, that nothing has to do with false accusations against AFRINIC staff. </div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">It is pacific to agree that most of us believe that we should have a mandatory abuse contact. Just like Lamiaa, I believe that one of the main issues here is that because maintaining database accuracy is an operational problem, it should be left to the staff to decide how to validate the contact info in the whois database.</div><div dir="ltr" class="">As I wrote in other emails, amending the section 7.5.1 to include the mandatory abuse-c as part of whois registration would be a better option.</div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">regards,</div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="ltr" class="">Lucilla </div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il giorno dom 4 ott 2020 alle ore 04:13 Patrick Okui <<a href="mailto:pokui@psg.com" target="_blank" class="">pokui@psg.com</a>> ha scritto:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u class=""></u>
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<div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Hi Lamiaa,</p><p dir="auto" class="">Actually you did not explain your position. It helps to be precise with what you mean.</p><p dir="auto" class="">You simply said:</p><p dir="auto" class=""><em class="">“Check accuracy of database data is part of afrinic operational routing and has no need to be put in the policy. We don’t micro manage afrinic.”</em></p><p dir="auto" class="">So I simply asked you to clarify if you imagined AFRINIC could simply make abuse-c mandatory without our say so or if they weren’t facing issues with the existing optional abuse-c.</p><p dir="auto" class="">Note that admin-c has a restriction that does not apply to any other contact. The requirement that the contact be resident in the AS. The exact roles of the different contacts is why they can have different restrictions.</p><p dir="auto" class="">So to be clear from your email, you agree that AFRINIC’s issue is legitimate and they need to be able to require members have mandatory abuse-c. It is not obvious that a mandatory contact is needed. This point is listed by the co-chairs as one of the outstanding issues. (point e. under the policy at <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011372.html" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011372.html</a> )</p><p dir="auto" class="">If I understand you (correct me where I’m wrong), what you take issue with (in this particular email thread) is 8.5. Specifically:</p><p dir="auto" class=""><em class="">8.5 Validation of "abuse-c"/"abuse-mailbox”</em></p><p dir="auto" class=""><em class="">AFRINIC will validate compliance with the items above, both when the "abuse-c" and/or "abuse-mailbox" attributes are created or updated, as well as periodically, not less than once every 6 months, and whenever AFRINIC sees fit.</em></p><p dir="auto" class="">Note that this is to address issues raised by some other people. Not to pick on Chloe but as a recent example she commented as recorded at <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011590.html" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011590.html</a></p><p dir="auto" class=""><em class="">nor does it guarantee the abuse email will be checked on a routine basis. Then I think it will only become a meaningless policy.</em> </p><p dir="auto" class="">The text proposed by Jordi says AFRINIC can pick the duration and 6 months (1/2 the billing cycle) is suggested as the max time between validations. In this text, AFRINIC can choose to validate weekly, or monthly or etc. I think the proposed text is a good compromise you can suggest a different timing. It just says AFRINIC can verify as often as they want, but anyone who reads the policy knows that any contact they retrieve is at most 6 months from its last validation (or less if AFRINIC decide to do this more often).</p><p dir="auto" class="">If this is a heavy point of contention, we can always ask staff to clarify what they understand from the proposed text and what they think about the phrasing of timelines. After all, it falls on their shoulders to implement.</p><p dir="auto" class="">On 3 Oct 2020, at 20:30 EAT, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:</p>
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<blockquote style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(88,85,213);color:rgb(88,85,213);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px" class=""><div id="gmail-m_8966813257361609292gmail-m_-163632186372547075201B39BA6-F349-483B-BE4A-D3916E512890" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class="">Hi Patrick,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">You are not following any logic here, and it seems like you are a very confused person on your argument.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">1. You claimed that you want to have policy text dictated AFRINIC how OFTEN they should validate contact in the whois.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">2. I am telling you maintaining database accuracy (in which partly includes validating contact info in the database) is an operational issue. It should not be put into policy text, and it should be left to the staff to decide how they want to validate the contact info in the whois database. That is not only abuse-c, but any other contact in the DB should be reachable and accurate. We don’t need a policy for that as that is Afrinic’s mandate and daily routine job.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">And how did you arrive from the above arguments to claim I was saying that the staff were lying?</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Staff claimed they have had an increase in work load due to the lack of mandatory abuse contact. Nobody is disputing that. Everyone here agrees we can, and we probably should, have a mandatory abuse contact. However, we should simply put it together with the other mandatory contacts. There is no reason making an entire section for a simple contact information. And when did I say that is a lie?</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Please, you are making a serious accusation about me without any ground and potentially you are in breach of the code of conduct.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Additionally, I did not send the letter to you in private. I simply forgot to press respond to all at the bottom which is a completely forgivable oversight. You are simply making too big of a noise for a simple mistake.</div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Regards,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Lamiaa</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 3 oct. 2020 à 11:45, Patrick Okui <<a href="mailto:pokui@psg.com" target="_blank" class="">pokui@psg.com</a>> a écrit :<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u class=""></u><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Hi Lamiaa,</p><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Great that you cc’ed the list this time. </p><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Kindly clarify your position on the following in the email I wrote and you just responded to..</p><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Are you trying to say that the AFRINIC staff is lying to the RPD list as per <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011534.html" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011534.html</a> ? Particularly point d? If so please respond to Madhvi with further queries or suggestions.</p><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">AFRINIC staff only operate within the boundaries of the policies we make. They can’t randomly make data mandatory that we say is optional or vice versa.</p><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">On 3 Oct 2020, at 13:42 EAT, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:</p><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(88,85,213);color:rgb(88,85,213);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px" class=""><div id="gmail-m_8966813257361609292gmail-m_-1636321863725470752m_-8791438754451458107512B9B13-5E58-48BB-B74E-66766B33798A" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px" class="">Hello Patrick,</div><div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px" class="">Check accuracy of database data is part of afrinic operational routing and has no need to be put in the policy. We don’t micro manage afrinic.</div><div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px" class="">Regards,</div><div dir="auto" style="color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" style="font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px" class="">Lamiaa</div></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 3 oct. 2020 à 11:41, Patrick Okui <<a href="mailto:pokui@psg.com" target="_blank" class="">pokui@psg.com</a>> a écrit :<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u class=""></u><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Hi Lamiaa,</p><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Grateful if you can cc the RPD list on your contributions.</p><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Are you trying to say that the AFRINIC staff is lying to the RPD list as per <a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011534.html" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011534.html</a> ? Particularly point d?</p><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">AFRINIC staff only operate within the boundaries of the policies we make. They can’t randomly make data mandatory that we say is optional or vice versa.</p></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">On 3 Oct 2020, at 13:10 EAT, Lamiaa Chnayti wrote:</p><br class=""><br class=""></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""></div></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><blockquote style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(88,85,213);color:rgb(88,85,213);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px" class=""><div id="gmail-m_8966813257361609292gmail-m_-1636321863725470752m_-8791438754451458107m_6611049201498727835A9723975-0D6A-4D1E-801E-8F95CB9FAC9B" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Hello Patrick,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Check accuracy of database data is part of afrinic operational routing and has no need to be put in the policy. We don’t micro manage afrinic.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Regards,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Lamiaa</div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Le sam. 3 oct. 2020 à 07:49, Patrick Okui <<a href="mailto:pokui@psg.com" target="_blank" class="">pokui@psg.com</a>> a écrit :<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u class=""></u><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Dear Elvis, </p><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">I’ll address just one of your points people keep bringing up.</p><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">On 3 Oct 2020, at 1:05 EAT, Ibeanusi Elvis wrote:</p><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><blockquote style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(88,85,213);color:rgb(88,85,213);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px" class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Dear Community,<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">Once more regarding this abuse contact policy or abuse-c, irrespective of the lack of a clear definition of what constitutes or entails an abuse, there is no guarantee that the abuse contact mail box will be routinely checked and the properly defined concept to determine if an abuse cases is valid and hence, take necessary action as pointed out by @Chloe.</p><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><br class=""><br class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Are you intentionally not reading the proposal text at <a href="https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2018-gen-001-d6#proposal" target="_blank" class="">https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2018-gen-001-d6#proposal</a></p><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">Specifically:</p><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class=""><em class="">8.5 Validation of "abuse-c"/"abuse-mailbox”</em></p><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class=""><em class="">AFRINIC will validate compliance with the items above, both when the "abuse-c" and/or "abuse-mailbox" attributes are created or updated, as well as periodically, not less than once every 6 months, and whenever AFRINIC sees fit.</em></p><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">--<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">patrick</p><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class=""><br class="">RPD mailing list<br class=""><br class=""><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" target="_blank" class="">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br class=""><br class=""><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd</a><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div></div>-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">Lamiaa CHNAYTI</font><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><blockquote style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(88,85,213);color:rgb(88,85,213);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">--<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">patrick</p><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div></div>-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">Lamiaa CHNAYTI</font><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""></div></div><div class=""><div style="font-family:sans-serif" class=""><div style="white-space:normal" class=""><blockquote style="border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(88,85,213);color:rgb(88,85,213);margin:0px 0px 5px;padding-left:5px" class=""><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote><br class=""><br class=""><p dir="auto" class="">--<br class=""><br class=""><br class="">patrick</p><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div></div>-- <br class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">Lamiaa CHNAYTI</font><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote>
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patrick</p>
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patrick</p>
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_______________________________________________<br class="">RPD mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:RPD@afrinic.net" class="">RPD@afrinic.net</a><br class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/rpd<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></div></blockquote>
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<p dir="auto">--<br>
patrick</p>
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